Anyone else have times of hopeless?

Depression
#21

PD,

I’d love to step in and and offer you some hope and show you the light, but I can’t. I’ve always seen the world the way you’re seeing it now. I think everybody is self serving, over emotional, and crap. It’s a view of the world I’ve been trying to overcome these past to years, but I’ve never even felt the pulse of a world that’s beatiful or full of people that are beatiful.

If I did, I’d focus on that. I’d focus on the things that make the world a good place and find my way back. I find I create my own experience, and I always felt better about it when I’m doing things to make the world a better place. When I see people start feeling like me, I start getting pushy. I always fear people will get stuck there like me and not find their way out.

“love…what is it?”

Its a bunch of chemicals. It is an illusion. At least, to me it is. It always make me sound like an N to comment on it, but I’m not sure I even know what love is. I have no family myself, and I’m not part of the community. I don’t pay alot of attention to the other side of the world. I always feel that I"m in the minority and everyone else has the things I don’t

Don’t let other people and events define you or your view of the world. You know what love is and whats right and wrong. It doesn’t change just because nobody else gets it. You don’t have to give in or fight it.

I just get used to it. What else is there?

#22

Gaye,

I am not going to engage with you again in yet another battle royale. If you do not like the topic I have presented, if you cant be bothered reading what I post when you are refering to it incorrectly, if all you want to do is lecture to me and look for another fight, then I will say again

please be my guest and bow out of this particular discussion and respond to someone else’s thread whom you’d find more to your liking.

Take your own advice and read Christina’s description of the forum.

This is a discussion, not a battle royale.

thanks but no thanks

I will not be refering to any of your antagonistic posts in this thread again.

Have a good night.

#23

PD,

Sorry, but he sounds like a loser to me.

And I’ve known people who do well in business (like the man I work for) who is not a shark, and good christian family men who gave to the community rising the ranks in politics. You do not have to be an N to be successful. I don’t find pretending and faking friendships equal to having real ones. I’m not surrounded by sharks.

Do you want his life? Do you want to be like him? I’d consider you a failure if you tried it his way or anybody elses.

#24

no…no I dont.

But you know what? there are many times, especially since I met him, that I wished I felt less, had less of a conscience, and was like him…precisely because he always seemed to win.

Take for instance our university educations. I worked hard and put myself into debt with student loans to get my degrees. I took the bus everywhere, cut every corner financially I could so I could carve my own way. He on the other hand, not only had his tuition, books, living quarters, entertainment paid for, but at some of the best schools in the world, AS WELL AS, money to travel abroad with, and a Mercedes, and a penthouse condo in a prestigious area of a large cosmopolitan city, and a swiss watch, and a new Imac…all on the ever-breaking back of a 75 yr old father who was working 7 days a week trying to pay for it all. And he was able to listen to his father complain about how he was feelign taken advantage of without any of it bothering his conscience.

He wasnt even MY father and it bothered my conscience. But he ended up the winner, with all the privileges that entails. it likely shortens his fathers life, it most certainly lessens the quality of it.

But it only mattered to me.

It would have been SO nice not to be bothered by it, or by how I struggled to make do with far less.

Thats just one small example, I’m sure like me, you could find any examples you have in your life of how the nice guy, maybe doesnt finish last, but sure has to struggle more to do with less.

That inequality bothers me. It disappoints me and bothers me.

And yes, sometimes I wish I held a more equal space, I sometimes wish my conscience didnt get in the way of me grabbing whatever I want from people and life.

What does that t-shirt say? “He who dies with the most toys, wins”?

its not in my character…its not me, its never going to be me without some kind of catastrophe taking place…but there are times like today when I wish I could be a taker and a user…

#25

WY,

I don’t think we are on the same page. I am actually making reference to acting on bad thoughts, not simply exploring them. I totally agree there is a very big difference, and that we do judge people based on their actions, not their thoughts. This is probably the main source of conflict between Trish and myself as she has difficulty accepting my refusal to be sympathetic and supportive of her making her N responsible for bad things she chose to do. When one truly repents, they do not blame someone else for their actions, nor do they blame love. It has a lot to do with being honest.

I also think there is a difference in wanting pain relief which is what I hear you saying, and in idealizing a person who inflicts pain which is what I hear and have heard PD/DD/Phoneix/Trish? saying on numerous occasions. Just my perceptions.

#26

PD,

Narcissism is a hallmark of our civilization, I agree.

It is My World

http://samvak.tripod.com/journal37.html

The Cultural Narcissist - Lasch in an age of diminishing expectations

http://samvak.tripod.com/lasch.html

Facilitating Narcissism

http://samvak.tripod.com/journal62.html

Collective Narcissism - Narcissism, Culture, and Society

http://samvak.tripod.com/14.html

Happy New Year to you and yours!!

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “PrimaDonna” npd-cpt7253@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 12:09 AM
Subject: [npd] anyone else have times of hopeless?

#27

I am clear that how I see the world isnt always true. The reason I know that for certain is because my view of the world changes over time, over weeks, sometimes over days. I’m an artist, an emotive sort to begin with. I also live in a culture in which I dont have to be preoccupied with the struggle to shelter or feed msyelf so I have plenty of time to look around and feel.

I also cant take in everything all the time. So right now I’m taking in a handful of circumstances which are pretty figural today. And as an intelligent human, and as an artist theres a tendency to want to make meaning out of things. Where is the pattern? what does that say about other people? about world politics? about the time and culture I live in?

what does it say about me?

I could turn a blind eye and just concentrate on what I do have…but that sometimes feels like turning the channel when the chairty special on Darfur comes on. Theres cruelty in the world. I’m not a cruel person but I own a pair of Nike shoes, I have bought Starbucks coffee, I eat chocolate and so with the power of my hard earned spending money I help finance child labour, the Israeli Defense Fund and military regimes.

I’m a stranger in a strange land who has dirt on my own hands.

It would be nice to skip and hum and go on in this world like I am clean and pure and can ignore all thats dirty and corrupt around me but thats not the case is it? Its not the case globally…its not the case in my family.

Having said that, I’m not sure what option there is except to turn off the television, go green, attend church, love my son and as Bup said, not let things get to me. Either that or succumb…but is that even an option for someone who isnt by nature a N? Isnt that sort of like choosing to be gay when I’m straight?

I’ll be a winner at what my exN used to refer to as “being a minion”.

About love…would I choose to be a N even if it meant I could never feel real love?

holy…no…what WYouth described as biochemistry has been the riches in my life that has outweighed the sorrow, the pain, the struggle, the sacrifice.

EXCEPT

(sigh) despite what my therapist tells me, that I wont feel this way one day, right now…I wish I couldnt have felt love for my exN, I wish I had ONLY felt wanting for him like he did for me…because he was able to walk away and take other lovers, buy his motorcycle, travel all over and not feel any pain. I could have taken other lovers, without effort. I could have bought a motorcycle and travelled abroad with some effort. But I could not have lived without feeling the pain…and there was too much. He was not worth that pain…and the pleasure I had in loving him, not just wanting him, but in wanting to help increase the quality of his life, to help him grow and develop and find fuldillment…was not worth it. I would GLADLY go back and make myself a N for those 8 years of my life. That wasnt one of the riches of my life…it was horrible. I think it might have been nice to use him, soak up all the good things I wanted from him and then been perfectly Ok to discard him after he’d lost his value to me…like he did with me.

I wonder if I’d hear something different from other survivors of N’s.

The thing I think about N’s, I dont think they really miss love, or meaningful friendships. How can you miss what youve never had? Its a life of ignorance…blissful ignorance.

And I suspect thats the truth in the political arena too.

#28

Hi,

More about narcissistic collectives, cultures, and societies - click on
these links:

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/14.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal87.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/lasch.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal62.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal63.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq47.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/15.html

Narcissism and Religion

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal45.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq47.html

Narcissism of authority figures

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/15.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq47.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq11.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal45.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal79.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal70.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/corporatenarcissism.html

Celebrity narcissists

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq19.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal73.html

Take care.

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “DoubtingDiva” npd-cpt7253@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] anyone else have times of hopeless?

#29

DD wrote: "But you know what? there are many times, especially since I met him, that I wished I felt less, had less of a conscience, and was like him…precisely because he always seemed to win. "

Trisha, I don’t really care what thread comes up on this board. My point was that I hope you understand that by Christina’s new direction for this board, that responses are not limited to support of one’s feelings, whatever they are.

Since you are okay with that and have put this up for discussion, than I have to say that I have difficulty with a person who committed crimes stating they wished they had less conscience, wished they were more like their psychopathic boyfriend, and perceive him as a winner and something superior. It rather sounds that there are some problems within your own conscience and contradictions to what you profess to be your own morals.

#30

Men don’t have babies. We have babies. Toys replace that void. That
is my perception. They
don’t go through the transition from me to we as easily…

On Dec 27, 2007, at 10:09 PM, PrimaDonna wrote:

#31

PD,

I’m the kinda of person who changes the channel, but thats because I spent way too much time focuses on the negative aspects of life. It is certainly okay to explore negative emotions and outlooks of society. This was in another discussion I was having somewhere else. It was referring to “whistling in the dark.” You know, some horror movie, or cartoon, where the character is in some dark scary forest and whistles to himself to feel better and take away the fear. It doesn’t make you any wiser, or help the situation.

I do identify with how you feel. There were times in my past relationship relationship I thought or wished I could be like her and instead of feeling the pain and heartbreak; I could simply not care about what would be trivial to her, and instead take full advantage of the situation. Instead of feeling bad about what wasn’t reciprocated, I could instead take it by force. Unfortunately, I’m not capable of being an N, and I want things offered freely to me.

You don’t get to pick to just be an N for 8 years. It has to affect your whole life. And you can’t just take and treat badly those who do it to you, you’ll be using and taking advantage of ALL your friends and family. In order not to care about the bad things you’ve been through, you’ll have to hurt everyone you come in contact with some way. But I guess if you were an N, you’d be oblivious to all that. I’d rather you wish it never happened than wish to take advantage of it.

I have felt that way, though. Its hard to go through one of these relationships and care so much over things they could care less about. It does seem like it would be easier just to become one of them. Its not really an option, though. I think instead of learning to care less, people would be better served by learning to care more about the things they don’t want in their lives enough to remove them or change them.

I do imagine your feelings are common for being in a dysfunctional relationship for so long, and other people would have simialr feelings.

You’re right, I doubt an N could miss love. Missing something requires having had it and lost it. My ex often thought she had it, and was kinda oblivious to the reality of the situations. I’ve known a few NPDs though, who had more of an awareness of life. You may not know what you are missing, but some people go through life with an awareness that something is missing from their lives, and that their should be more meaning. I’ve known some Ns who were even ashamed of what they were. I’ve also known some who could care less and even thinks it makes them better. They aren’t all ignorant, but most probably are. There are many things I don’t experience and that I’m oblivious to, but I can still recognize I’m doing it all wrong.

I’m sure there are Ns in politics, and I bet you can find them in all sorts of fields of employment. I don’t think it means they dominate those areas though.

SusieJo,

I’ve had those feelings, also. Its human nature. There’s a big difference between exploring your bad thoughts and feelings and acting on them. If people are defined or judge by the thoughts they have, I’d be in big trouble. I would hope people would judge on how I act in response to my feelings.

I think having feelings and thoughts like that are natural and human, even common for people coming from dysfunctional relationships. Its not a problem unless that person acts on it or gets stuck there for too long.

Bup,

I don’t have babies. I also don’t have a void that I fill with toys. Thats a stereotype of males that I do not fit into. Not all men are the same.

#32

This forum is now for open discussion and debate of topics related to NPD. Thats what this thread is. Its not a place to openly maliciously and abusively attack someone’s personality, character or morality based on lies and conjecture so yes Gaye I will be complaining about your abusive post.

I asked you twice to either stick to the topic being discussed or to go elsewhere if you dont like it. You are certainly free to have your assumptions and projections about my character. You are not free to attack me or anyone else publicly with those assumptions and projections.

(sigh, same old same old)

#33

I think instead of learning to care less, people would be better served by learning to care more about the things they don't want in their lives enough to remove them or change them.

 

Absolutely.

 

 

Absolutely.

 

Its disheartening, however, when for some people, that means assassinating a popular politician.  Its disheartening when it seems we can only really influence (not even control) our own little slice of the universe...and the larger areas around us, are influenced by other people who want what they want (and dont want).

 

 

#34

DoubtingDiva wrote: I asked you twice to either stick to the topic being discussed or to go elsewhere if you dont like it.

I would certainly agree it is the same old same old with a certain person trying to control and manipulate me as well as this board. Open discussion means open, not controlled. You started the insults towards me and continue them. You define abuse as anyone saying something that you do not like. Sorry, I have a different definition. I do not know what lies you are talking about - I only know what you have presented - please share what of that was not truthful. Or should I pull up the private messages you sent me?

#35

SusieJo,

No, we aren’t really on the same page. I guess I see her as exploring them and not acting on them, and you see the opposite. I can’t really be certain for sure how anyone thinks or feels here, as they might just be reacting to the current conflict.

I am delibrately not taking into account her reference to bullying or the exsisting conflict, or at least trying to keep it as a seperate entity. People have a right to express how they feel, or if they are feeling abused or bullied, wether they are right or wrong… assuming they do it in a mature manner. I’d also think it’d be the others persons right to express their disagreement, if also done maturely. Its also everybodies right to solve or just resign from the conflict.

I do understand your conflict. I don’t equate disagreement or unsupportiveness as bullying or abuse or a personal attack. I don’t associate harsh opinions with a personal attack.

I’ve had my own discussion with the admins which probably have something to do with the new note. People have a right to express opposing views wether or not other people like to hear it or not, as long as it doesn’t contain foul language or is otherwise immature. They’ve provided forums for people who feel differently and wish people would take advantage of them.

I doubt anything PD says in a conversation is represenative of who she is, because she is expressing anger as she does it. I think people misinterpret you for the same reasons.

#36

anyone maliciously attacking my character is verbal abuse…particularly when its doen with incorrect assumptions and faulty projections

simple

“open” discussion should not include personal attacks on character

I doubt thats what CarePlace admin had in mind.

#37

I can see how, if any topics about NPD or narcissism in society in general, or our own personal expriences in particular are driven BACK to the same odl same old of verbal personal attacks, then this forum is also without hope

this is ridiculous

seriously…its ridiculous

consider this topic closed then, its obviosu if I get involved with a discussion about NPD it can only end up with Gaye attacking me, and I"m not interested

thats not discussion

simple

#38

wy wrote: I’ve had my own discussion with the admins which probably have something to do with the new note. People have a right to express opposing views wether or not other people like to hear it or not, as long as it doesn’t contain foul language or is otherwise immature. They’ve provided forums for people who feel differently and wish people would take advantage of them.

wy: Great idea to have separate boards but they are not working because those who wanted their own board, also want to control this one and in fact, want Blitzen and myself gone. They have very clearly expressed that on their own board which isn’t able to generate much discussion unless it is attacks on Blitzen and me.

They continually come back to this board to get the conflict going. Trish’s gigs started and continue in her calling me Blitzen. And I have no doubt that she now feels she has gathered more garbage so to manipulate Christina with and accomplish her end.

It’s all about N’s and psychopaths, and their need for narcissistic supply and to control. And what happens when you refuse to give it to them. Nothing more and nothing less.

#39

And I will add one more thing before the N succeeds in censoring me.

If you were in fact ever involved with a true personality disorder, the best healing that can be done is to learn how to know one when you next encounter one.

#40

And the following is an example of what would get sent to my private messages after these one of these little sparring events. I finally blocked her though. It’s a game - nothing more, nothing less

•

• DoubtingDiva
seriously though
Sent on November 22:
you were tons of fun today

it was nice