Tainted Love: Vampire or Victim?

Narcissistic personality disorder
#21

Well, as far as I can see, a true psychopath is a person who is born with different wiring. He lacks “other focused”, altruistic, emotion…and the dominoes fall from there so that he lacks conscience, sense of consequence, drive to affiliate and most aspects of empathy…

A pathologically Narcissistic person is, as far as I can tell, born pretty normal, but is then conditioned (in whatever way) by his environment to keep his emotions focussed on self (the state in which we are all born) and detach from his embryonic altruistic emotions so that they may well become effectively atrophied, and certainly do not develop properly.

The psychopath is a cold blooded creature. In his mind he, very probably, feels totally alone in a world with no existance independent of his imagination. He tends to just expect his environment to do as he wishes, no matter how much evidence he gets to the contrary.

I do not see vho anything could possibly reach him or motivate him to change. Without a secondary disorder, he isn’t sick, or broken, he is just, as we say here “something wanting”.

The pathologically Narcissistic person has become numb with cold…literally IN RESPONSE to his environment…unable to react sensitively to his environment in that state he resorts to reflecting it, dependent on reflecting his environment, he tends to try and dictate the form it should take to suit him. He could be healed, but first you would have to reach him and motivate him, and that would become something of a vicious circle.

Neither is intrinsically evil…they are not in any way compelled or driven to “do nasty stuff” …but both, to different degrees, have less motivation to be refrain from “nasty stuff”.

That is the point at which Sam takes flight with the birds and departs from reality altogether…in trying to present either Narcissism or Psychopathy as a compulsion or addiction to negative and destructive behaviours…when, in fact, they are just a dearth of internal obstruction from it.

WHEW!!!

NEED DRINK>>>>>

GD

#22

That reminds me of the movie, Monster, about Aileen Wuornos. I hate the way they portrayed that woman. They made it seem as if she had some form of battered wife syndrome, and all the victims of her life almost deserved it for their treatment of her and their lifestyles. The one guy who didn’t truly deserve, she showed sympathy for and released. Thats not a psychopathic trait at all. Its not the woman I saw on the TV screaming about how much she hates the human race and wants to kill them all.

I guess all the evil psychopaths are supposed to be white male loners, but it does seem this stereotype is starting to change. We do have these women showing up and doing horrible things, and we have the sniper team from a while back.

I wonder is a lot of psychopaths get away with using a battered wife excuse for killing their husbands. I don’t like that “syndrome” at all and wish they’d find a more appropriate name. I spent a good deal of time in a relationship with one of these people who didn’t treat me well at all and it effected me mentally on a great scale. I can’t exactly use the term “battered wife” for myself being male and all, but certainly I went through many of the same things. The reason the term scares me so much was how easy it was for my ex to convince people I was abusive, and to even get all her friends to tolerate her bad and abusive behaviors because they believed I deserved it. She made up plenty of lies so that she didn’t have to take responsibilities for the things she did. I fear misuse of the syndrome.

Women can certainly be every bit as screwed up as the males.

I live in Texas, BTW, and I remember several times driving through the country and having an old store pointed out to me, “Bonnie and Clyde robbed that shop.” They certainly were glorified when I was a child.

It also reminds me of a discussion on another support group. Someone brought up the topic of that NASA love triangle, where the girl drove across country in a diaper with a roll of duct tape to confront the other girl. Do you know what they said? They wanted to take bets that the guy involved was a narcissist, and how he must have drove her to it. Are you kidding me?

I suppose I can relate though… after going through my experience I often wanna side with the male and assume the woman is always the N. They are out there… i’ve seen em!

#23

Susijo,

What? Jeffrey Dahmer wasn’t crazy as a loon? He ate people, and wanted to pour battery acid in their brains, ameture lobotomies, so he could have living zombie slaves? Isn’t that a definition of crazy as a loon also?

I guess its the definition of crazy that confuses me. I do recognize there are major differences between Dahmer and Manson. Its much more obvious that Manson isn’t all there, and Dahmer seems much more intelligent and composed… at least in the interview with him I saw.

Anyways, I guess those are the differences I was looking for. Psychopaths have no empathy. NPDs have low empathy, or just don’t utilize it.

Blitzen,

Its nice to know that people out there are understanding of those of us who shut themselves off from the world emotionally. After years of being treated badly at home, and bullied and picked on through high school, I must have just got fed up with people and the world. Some people think I’m a jerk and wrong for doing it, so its nice to hear that it can be understandable.

#24

Blitzen,

“A pathologically Narcissistic person is, as far as I can tell, born pretty normal, but is then conditioned (in whatever way) by his environment to keep his emotions focussed on self (the state in which we are all born) and detach from his embryonic altruistic emotions so that they may well become effectively atrophied, and certainly do not develop properly.”

That makes a lot of sense to me. I don’t think it has to apply to just NPD either, but all the personality disorders, and even lots of neurosis on a smaller scale. My brother and I turned out quite different despite growing up in the same enviroment. I think are brains found different solutions for the same problems, which is why I relate so much when reading about NPD and such. We’ve got psychopaths that go shooting up schools nowadays. Thankfully, fantasizing about it was a better solution for me.

#25

WY, That is something I do not like about contemporary women’s libbers – they always paint the male as the monster and themselves as “victims”. I see it constant with young girls. They never take responsibility for their own actions. And most of them really never in their lives experienced sexism. My mom’s generation was suppose to be so suppressed but the movies of her time portrayed such wonderful devious characters – male and female both. And the women were usually very strong people. There was one recently, can’t remember the name, but Joan Crawford was the single mother of a very narcissistic daughter. She had started her company so to make good money to bring the girl up with everything.I think she was like 17. Mom had spoiled her rotten, always covering her from consequences. The girl fakes being pregnant by a rich guy and then gets a super nice settlement from his family so to not taint the family name. Mother is shocked when she learns the girl was really pregnant but girl has just achieved financial independence. She seduces her mother’s boy friend to spite the mother, and than at the point she realizes he is not going to leave the mom for her, she kills him. Very wicked young lady. But it was the guys death that made mom finally stop protecting the girl and she turns her in.

There is that minister’s wife who got away with shooting him dead by claiming abuse. Let any guy claim it, even prove it – he would never walk free for killing his wife.

I saw the same happened with a friends son who married a girl who was borderline PD. He was a nice guy – she almost ruined his career with false accusations. All it takes these days is for a woman to claim abuse. In the Duke La Crosse players, that DA did what they do day in and day out and prosecute based on her word. It angers me that he got singled out and the press did not expose how much it goes on. It is not fair to guys at all – women are just as bad if not worse.

On the NASA woman, I think the police and the press really did her injustice and exaggerated the circumstances. Just last week or the week before, they threw her confession out. This is the state of Florida – same thing happened to that Cooey who killed that little girl. Police there must be pretty bad as it takes a lot to get a confession canned. All the players in that scene were astronauts, strong military background, lots of education, lots of training. I mean these guys get in that Space Shuttle connected to all that rocket fuel and zoom to outer space. I can’t see poor victim in any of them, tough top notch people. And she was married with kids. I don’t think any were innocent babes at all. I do think she had a very bad hair day and lost it. But diapers and duck tape to commit kidnapping and murder? Nah. I would bet all that stuff was just in her car from training.

#26

Read this about the insanity defense:

http://samvak.tripod.com/insanitydefense.html

NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) and AsPD (Antisocial Personality
Disorder, or Psychopathy/Sociopathy)

http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders16.html

http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders15.html

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/faq15.html

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/faq82.html

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/faq45.html

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/faq57.html

http://open-site.org/Health/Conditions_and_Diseases/Psychiatric_Disorders/Personality/Antisocial/

Narcissism on Crime TV

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/gerald_stano/4.html?sect=2

Crime and Terrorism

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/serialkillers.html (PopMatters.com)

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/12.html (The Idler)

Corporate Narcissism

http://www.suite101.com/bulletin.cfm/6514/10621 (New York Times)

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/corporatenarcissism.html (United Press
International - Part I, Part II)

http://www.nypress.com/16/7/news&columns/feature.cfm (New York Press)

Listen to “Psychopaths in Suits” on Australia’s ABC Radio

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/bbing/mod/bbing_18072004_2856.ram

Or read the transcript here:

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/bbing/stories/s1158704.htm

Abusive Relationships

http://www.suite101.com/topic_page.cfm/6514/2051

http://www.suite101.com/bulletin.cfm/18046/12847

Mirror, Mirror … (Toronto Sun)

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/NPDBibliography.zip

Thank you again. Have a safe, warm, and productive week.

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “wastedyouth” npd-cpt7180@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 5:17 AM
Subject: Re: [npd] Tainted Love: Vampire or Victim?

#27

Pathological narcissism is a reaction to prolonged abuse and trauma in early
childhood or early adolescence. The source of the abuse or trauma is
immaterial - the perpetrators could be parents, teachers, other adults, or
peers. Pampering, smothering, spoiling, and “engulfing” the child are also
forms of abuse - see these:

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/narcissismglance.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal42.html

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php/type/doc/id/419

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “wastedyouth” npd-cpt7180@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 5:42 AM
Subject: Re: [npd] Tainted Love: Vampire or Victim?

#28

I think it applies, to an extent, to all PDs too WY…

After all, isn’t that what defenses are for? To distance us from pain and vulnerability? And where is there more pain and vulnerability than in our own emotions?

It is not a crime or a sin to distance from your own emotions if you need to…

The sin is in distancing from morality, scruples and ethics, which are, after all, intellectual concepts that can be unaffected by emotional trauma if we want them to be.

I think emotional detachment (including addictions), is not so much “bloody mindedness” as something you do because, in your own particular set of circumstances, you couldn’t cope, or perhaps even couldn’t survive, any other way. It is what you choose to do once detached from them that is open to judgment.

Even a pure psychopath can choose to be decent and honorable (NB this does NOT apply to “affecting to choose to be decent and honorable” - there is a lot of that about :o) ), and if any one ever did he would deserve a nobel for it, because he has absolutely nothing to gain at all, and perversely, for a psychopath to choose virtue would be the purest altruism of all.

Susiejo,

That is interesting stuff you say…

I know that feminism always goes way too far in condemning men just for…well…BEING men…they cannot help it after all.

Certainly in everyday life the woman does seem just as likely to be the dominant partner and driving force as the man. Sante Kimes was a truly despicable example of that.

It is even suggested that, when you strip away the BS “the female of the species is more deadly than the male”.

GD
(A 6 ft woman who never got to play “helpless victim” yet, but is still working on it.)

#29

I hate when I reply to things and my message never actually gets saved.

Women have generally been accepting of me. Mostly the people who have been through such a relationship are the only ones who completely understand, those who haven’t don’t really get all that goes on. I’ve seen just as many women caught up in court battles with NPDs who don’t seem to have the upper hand.

My first entrance onto an NPD support group turned out badly though. The first time I ever came out about my experience resultedin a woman telling me it was abusive to push a girl away who was trying to rape you against your will. It was the first time I ever opened up about what I had been through, and it was pretty devestating… as I had set my self up to think the world was full of women like this and she only fufilled my preconcieved ideas.

it was, though, the only time it ever happened. Most women don’t think about the female NPDs, but usually, when I start to tell my story, its not a problem. Its a story thats familiar to them, just like their stories are to me.

I find it odd that women would be able to stay under the gun being NPD or psychopathic as opposed to a male. These behaviors are generally considered masculine traits, and I would think a woman would stick out more doing it. Being agressive or promiscious is more frowned upon when coming from a woman.

If they are getting away with it, they certainly have one up on the male psychopaths.

#30

My first entrance onto an NPD support group turned out badly though. The first time I ever came out about my experience resultedin a woman telling me it was abusive to push a girl away who was trying to rape you against your will. It was the first time I ever opened up about what I had been through, and it was pretty devestating… as I had set my self up to think the world was full of women like this and she only fufilled my preconcieved ideas.

That is APPALLING WY…

Is is abusive if I push away a man who wants to rape me, because I am an Aspie maybe and too alexithymic to really know whether I consent or not?

Why does being a woman or a man make a difference?

YOU DO NOT force yourself on other people…full stop…period…that’s all she wrote…

To be honest, psychopathic, narcissistic and/or addicted women are, in my experience, such a nightmare that people would be justified in being “in denial” about them any time they can be.

GD

#31

It was appalling! But thankfully, those people are in the minority.

Is it rape if you don’t know if you want to consent or not? Thats an interesting qeustion, and I suppose it depends on the situation. Rape was a strong word for me to use, and it probably would have been better to use the term “sexual harassment.” I’m not an Aspie, but I was very confused throughout. I didn’t know what I wanted at the time, but thats no excuse to ignore the parts of me that clearly were not ready. Taking advantage of a weakness is always bad.

Before I started dating this girl, a man filed two sexual harrassment complaints against her at her workplace… a man she was semi dating. Her female friends supported her and their response was something along the lines of, “what a jerk!” My ex would get very mad at me when I suggested something other than her friends, that what she was doing was wrong.

I can’t argue that these kinds of women are not a nightmare =) I am suprised that they get away with it though. I think it has to do with pity. My ex let it slip once that her friends are only her friends because either they feel sorry for her, or they are too stupid to know what she is.

#32

WY,

Sorry if what I’m misinterpreting, but were you aware there were serious problems with her before you got involved with her? I’m curious to know why somebody would get involved with someone knowing beforehand.

Blitzen,

What does it mean to be alexithymic?

I don’t see how anyone in a monster relationship could be the victim if they are doing monstrous things. People should always be responsible for their actions regardless of the situation they are in… unless they are forced. If your partner is a bank robber, you should get out and not join in.

#33

I get asked that qeustion a lot. I’ll answer it in private or a future discussion. I don’t participate often and it bums me out when conflict threads get bumped over other things… last time I shared a piece of myself at request it just got lost in the chaos and it bugs me.

#34

Oh NO WAY are those “conflict threads” getting any more bumping over this! Silly me thought she might have actually been trying to fix things by getting the wost deleted, but I didn’t want to assume…

Alexithymia…

How to explain it?

It’s not “being out of touch” with you emotions, nor even being detached from them, it’s more like not really speaking their language…

You know they are THERE, and how they feel, but you don’t know why, or in relation to what.

My “party trick” has always been falling in love, and needing more than 3 guesses to figure out who with…

…and that is NOT a joke…the flipside is that is leaves me wide open to all kinds of emotional exploitation…not nice…

GD

#35

Well, okay, I’ll keep playing then…

I get asked that question a lot. I recognized many of my exes destructive behaviors, and I get involved to protect her and keep her out of trouble. She often made me feel that if I didn’t step in she’d self destruct. Somewhere along the line I got “being in love” confused. I loved her and cared about her deeply, but not in a way thats any different to how I’d care about a family memeber. I wasn’t really “in love”, but lost track of it.

That sounds tough, Blitzen… don’t know if I identify though. At times I realized that my ex, despite her great abilities at being manipulative, was easily manipulated herself. Its interesting how similar aspergers and schizoid seem at times, even though they are so different. I can be easily manipulated myself, seeing as my self seems to form in the idea of what I think other people want me to be.

I agree ll, its hard for me to see anyone in a monstrous relationship as a victim. I know people can be overpowered and weakened, but there are always other healthy options besides joining in to the lifestyle. I never could have lived with myself if I acted like my own ex.