~and in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make~

Depression
#1

(thats true for us, but not for N/S’s, is it?)

I’m sad this week. Sad for my exhusband whom I have love and affection for, one of my dearest friends. Sad for his loss, his grief, his fear and pain during this time his father is dying.

Also sad because I’m remembering my own dad whom I loved and lost suddenly 10 years ago.

And oddly enough I’ve been thinking about my exN/S a lot. Not the good times, those were few and brief. But remembering all the love and affection…and HOPE I had for him that his life would not only become bigger and better, but that he, as a person I found beautiful in spirit, not just bodily, would realize his goodness. And how a few times I felt I saw it fleetingly take space.

I feel sad thinking thats been lost, that its lost at sea, too far from any shore…too far for him to be able to make that journey in this lifetime. I feel sad thinking that maybe all the pain he feels, and the emptiness and inability to be someone normal, or bored will never go away…that he will be forever trying to quench the uncomfortableness “being him”, with the drinking and drugs and risk taking and power struggles, designer labels and material things. I feel sad because I think that starvation he always feels will never ever go away.

And because I loved him with the biggest love I had in me, I had such hope he could find his way. I think in some way, because I’m sad thinking about the possibility he may never find his way, that my heart still does feel some care about him.

I’m remembering that I loved him once…loved him magnificently…and wide open

and despite not getting back what was so freely flowing out of my heart (that he took much more than he gave)

I imagine the time when his death comes, like my exhusband’s father, or MY father will he be looking back and realizing what he missed?

Or will he have figured it out (what an immense job that is for someone like him) and have become the loving friend, son, husband, father…stable, reliable, honourable man…good hearted person I so hoped for him?

SMG was the one who helped me realize they are like 8 yr old boys, scared, alone, hurt – trapped in adult bodies. I wish, I hope, he wont have spent a lifetime being in that trap.

It seems a tragic way to experience life.

The thinking about death (again, I went through this 2 years ago with my grandmother) is making me realize how good I’ve been spending my own life with those people in my life whom I love. I just wish my love, and chunk of life, would have been well spent with my exN/S…for his sake, as well as mine.

#2

It does feel better when we have healed some; I too feel much stronger. My
Daddy always told me Life is sometimes cruel and unfair; full of obstacles;
but find away to get through, over, under or through the obstacles; but
never quit. Little did I know at 16 (now 56) that those words were for
survival.
MJ
----- Original Message -----
From: “ThePhoenixxx” npd-fft-11703@lists.fireflyhealth.org
To: mtdonnelly@frontiernet.net
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: [npd] ~and in the end the love you take is equal to the love
you make~

#3

Phoenix:

I can’t believe that this was your post. I am feeling very sad and wanted to throw out these feelings with people that truly understand, but wasn’t sure which post it would best fit, then I read this one and knew exactly where it went. While my reply is more of what you are saying, I am not at the “remember when I loved him” stage. My ex-husband’s father passed away yesterday, dear ol’ grandpa. I loved him dearly. He was very special to me, and to my sons. Just two weeks ago, grandpa was out having a beer with my son. He was in no pain. A week later his family felt that he looked jaundice. They took him to the hospital, where they discovered three spots on his xray. Later, they discovered the dooming truth, that grandpa had cancer in three different locations in his body. Before grandpa came up for air, he had surgery to put in a stent and was told (makes me crazy) that he had three to six months to live. Once hearing that, it was as if he just gave up. Suddenly, he had an infection from the stint, the damn morphine (which was used for the stent surgery, not pain from cancer)was making him out of it, and his body was shutting down. Within two days from telling grandpa the bad news, he was gone. He died very peacefully. Grandpa was a very young in spirit 88, with the mind of a young man. I cried my heart out, and what is worse, my ex-husband told me that while my prayers were appreciated (God talking), that my presence was not. Never mind that I was 23 years in Grandpa’s family, and that I did so much for them, never mind loving him as dearly as I did and always will. I received three scathing emails from my ex-husband to stay away and keep my opinions to myself, (I was trying to help with information I had, as I have been through this route before with many family members. I was just trying to help). Here, after seven and one-half years, my ex-husband is trying to punish me for what I have done----leaving him. He doesn’t care that I am the mother of his children, and that I want to be there not just to show respect for grandpa, but also be there to support my sons. I have chosen not to go to the wake, and have decided to go to the church service and leave from there. Grandpa will now know the truth. Anyway, the truth is that this man will never be able to forgive me for leaving him—even though he subtly and not so subtly abused me from the start. I was his possession and no-one else should have, regardless if he didn’t love me and hated me or not. So, today, I am so much better (I would have fallen apart if this happened earlier in the break-up of our marriage), but still, the feeling inside me is unsettling and I am so hurt, even knowing the nature of this man’s beast.

Mariel Lee

#4

Mariel

I’m so sorry to hear about your exgrandfather.

How are your kids doing on the grief end of things? My son cried a bit at his Grampa’s funeral last weekend, but only briefly and I find now just a few days later we can reminisce about “GRampy” and laugh and its all OK.

Theres nothing like the loss of a loved one that helps us become a little more conscious of the frailty of life.

I’m also sorry to hear about how your exH can still make things difficult. I’ve thought about my exN/S dad’s funeral. He was in frail health when we broke up, and he’s emailed me and phoned a few times during the last 3 years although not for awhile now. I had asked my exN/S to let me know if anything bad should happen to his dad (I loved his dad like a FIL) with the intent of showing up, afterall his father was only ever good to me.

And I decided if and when that day should ever come, I wouldnt attend the funeral. I’d visit the grave afterwards and say my own farewell. But thats an easy decision for me to make since I dont have any children there to support in their grieving.

I suppose its your exH’s way of cutting off the flow of your love right? And of protecting himself from the bad feelings he’d have to confront if he saw you (and if other members of his family saw you). So he hurts you to save himself from feeling any hurt.

Its too bad though, for his dad’s and your sons’ sake. Because really what else are we here on this planet for but to forge relationships with one another, extend love, receive love, be called to our higher selves?

My ex FIL’s funeral they had 3x as many people as they anticipated. It was standing room only right into the hallway. The reception afterwards was so packed I was feeling a bit claustrophobic. And despite it being hot and uncomfortable from the crush of people, my exMIL, my exH, my exSIL’s were all so comforted by the outpouring of love, and respect.

It cost me so little to make the 3 hour drive there, to be able to offer what is really most neeeded at an hour like that.

Shame on a N/S for ensuring that cant happen!

Its too bad for that one hour he couldnt let himself be present for his father, and just see you as one more person who loved and was touched by him.

ahh well…what can ya do?

except find a way to express your condolences or love for him in your own way apart from the funeral.

In the end, the crossing over all the thresholds of life (including grief) have to be done alone anyway. Something as survivors of N/abuse we know firsthand.

#5

Phoenix,

You are so in tune. You feel what I feel. We are on the same wave length, yet both still on-guard. YES, everything you say is exactly how I feel. Our intellect is and I believe always has been in tact, and that is why, I believe, we are survivors, still forever healing. What these people can do to you without you looking.

Thanks,
Mariel Lee

#6

Has anyone dealt with their xn on a flip side ? I went through living hell
11 years ago when I left the abuse; he drove me off the road, did damage to
my car , anything he could. On top of that he said and did everything he
could to keep our children from loving their mother. Of course, he was
always so slick, how wonderful a guy, Mj was such a b…How could she…4
1/2 years ago, we had a grandson born, my ex and his new wife told 3 social
services I was dead (keep in mind, his new wife could not have children)
Because our daughter had no car or phone they turned her in for neglect so
that they could get the grandson in their custody/ How sick, manipulitive
and controling is that ? Up until last summer, I was being blamed over and
over; since then my ex has been saying things almost like he was actually
admitting; but of course, never Im sorry; thats not in his vocabulary. His
wife has increasingly becoming more evil. Actually making him look good. She
radiates hatred and evil in her looks her walk anad actions. I am finding it
funny now, that he is living with someone like himself and worse. NOW, when
she is not around he is non stop talking and decent; when she is around, the
game plays all in reverse except bad mouth; he just keeps his mouth shut…I
look at him and realize what I have been through; I am glad we at least can
speak about our children and not eat each other alive anymore; But, I am
also grateful I woke up and got out, even if it hurt like hell then and all
these years. I am now in a much happier place; and the tables are turning
against him, as he purposely did to me; it is beautiful to sit back and
watch the payback. I quess that makes me sick and evil doesn’t it to see him
live through hell that he gave me? Oh well…Just had to comment.
MJ
----- Original Message -----
From: “mariel lee” npd-fft-11703@lists.fireflyhealth.org
To: mtdonnelly@frontiernet.net
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] ~and in the end the love you take is equal to the love
you make~

#7

Mariel,

I HOPE we dont spend the rest of our lives healing!!!

Its been 2 1/2 years for me so far, I’d love it if this state I’m in now could be the last one and that sooner rather than later I’d be all back to normal…well not the same as I was 10 years ago, I’ll be forever changed…but back to feeling like an altogether normal person is the goal.

Right now its been suggested my feeling all flat and without much feeling is burnout after the years of traumatic and post traumatic stress, which frankly makes perfect sense to me. I’m just doing research now on what I can do to work through it as fast as I can.

But it seems like a relatively small problem now in comparison to where my head and heart WERE.

Wouldnt it be ever so nice to have this cleared up by summer!

How are you finding things? I suppose we go on with the beauty of our everyday lives, and then when things like these funerals come up, it renders the scars a little more tender than usual, like icy cold weather on old knee injuries, yes? A throbbing nuisance of a memory of a past hurt.

Thats progress…huge progress though isnt it? A reminder of how hopeless and horrible and desperate we felt at the beginning of this journey, and how far we’ve come if we just look back.

“patience grasshopper” was one of my T’s mantras for me because I wanted the pain and grief overwith as soon as possible (well, you know, I wrote about it here often enough).

But really, of all us oldtimers, we all seem to be so much better than I remember us being a year ago.

We have a lot to be grateful for.

Onwards…and upwards.

#8

Spitfire,

I dont know. In my worst state of rage I was wishing , hoping, and every night dreaming that my exN/S would die.

But just recently I Googled him for the first time since I went No Contact and saw 2 things that showed his life continues to be a rollercoaster in terms of relationships and the law…and I actually felt sympathy for him (its what spurred me to send that brief email asking him if he was OK).

We havent been apart 11 years, and as far as I know he hasnt wasted any energy targeting me since the breakup like yours seems to have done

but I was discussing it with my T last week, that even if our exN/S’s love was never really love, but just the kind of affection a guy feels for his brand new racingbike (easily replaced when a better model comes along, or he tires of it), MY love was real…and at least for me, when I love it seems to be part of my heart for a very long time (my loving my non-N/S-exhusband platonically 10 years later is evidence of that).

I guess what I am saying is, having been on both sides of that emotional fence toward my exN/S, I dont think theres any right or wrong way to feel about them…theres only how we feel about ourselves. Did we find the courage to survive? Did we make good use of the recovery period? Have we made sure the rest of our lives and relationships are of the highest quality, and highest contribution we could make?

I know a few people who fell down and never figured out how to get back up again.

I’m making damn sure thats not my fate.

Thats all we can really do for ourselves in these cirucmstances.

#9

I agree 100 %, None of our lives was /is easy and it will probably always be
a part of our emotional life. But, like you say: We have too make the
difference; we have to make the best of our lives and make sure we don’t
fall into the same fate (trap) again. Its not easy sometimes,but, we must
remember all we went thru and love ourselves . zi thank God for my T.
MJ
----- Original Message -----
From: “ThePhoenixxx” npd-fft-11703@lists.fireflyhealth.org
To: mtdonnelly@frontiernet.net
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: [npd] ~and in the end the love you take is equal to the love
you make~

#10

It also occurs to me there is a sense of…settledness that comes with seeing evidence that validates “I’m not the one with the disorder, he is”. I felt that just recently and so I wonder if thats what youre refering to.

I knew my exN/S had similar problems with his partner before me, I watched him create problems like that with his father, and his mother and one of his best friends while I was with him – and I see it still continues on in his life after I’m gone despite any claims he might make to the contrary.

So while I have sympathy that a person I loved and still seem to care for is still living a life with melodrama and pain and trouble, there IS a sense of settledness in MYSELF, confirmation even that it wasnt just a personality clash between us…he really is disordered and it would seem stuck in a pattern of the damage a N/S creates by habit.

A negative confirmation as far as he is concerned…

a positive one for me It reaffirms that apart from him is where I need to be, that the misery I experienced while with him was NOT because of me.

And when we’re talking about people who are so good at making someone feel confused, and twisted up and full of self-doubt, those pieces of evidence, those images of confirmation are quite valubale.

Maybe thats why you felt good after seeing things werent so hunky dory for him even 11 years after? and that they were MUCH better for you?

#11

Interesting about falling into the same trap again.

On the one hand, intellectually, I dont feel at all at risk of finding myself there again. I cant imagine after having such a powerfully intensely negative experience (the worst years of my life) which stand apart from the rest of my life thus far, that I’d have the bad luck to find myself with another disordered person, or if I did, that I would have the stomach to stay for very long.

And on the other hand, on the emotional and instinctual gut-level, after having been emotionally “poisoned”, I presently have a viceral, bodily aversion to any potentially romantic relationship at all. (Which just may be nature’s way of telling me, its not time yet, theres still some healing to be done?? who knows)

My brain trusts me…my gut doesnt.

I’m not worrying much about that anymore (like my past posts show I used to). Thats the future. I’ve sort of found myself focussing more and more on THIS moment, and right now, because I have no desire for romance, no hunger for it, no missing of it, I just dont worry about it. My life has slowly over the last few years become better and better physically, emotionally, financially, relationally (friends, family), career-wise and creatively. But I think thats normal for survivors of just about anything traumatic. Time is the great healer.

And feeling trust in ourselves more and more over time seems part of that process.

Actually, now that I think about it, considering how I used to feel overwhelmed by intolerable pain, and worried I might NOT make it, I feel a little bit like , I dont know…stronger and more resilient than I ever thought I was…like Ironman(woman!).

If I could come out of that healing and living as well as I am right now (and I still have a ways to go), I really could probably survive just about anything.

(This reminds me of what I read in Viktor Frankl’s book “Mans Search For Meaning” – maybe thats the piece I hadnt been able to get earlier, maybe thats the meaning I am to come away with after all this)

And youre right, you’d be hard pressed to find someone in this world who hasnt suffered some kind of pain. Its what makes us all so interesting I suppose, not just our stories, but how those stories shaped us, and how we adopted coping mechanisms, how they shaped our character. Humans are nothing if not resilient. I DO believe however, that certain traumas produce certain coping mechanisms, and some of them are counter-productive in the long run (like PTSD, or anxiety attacks in my particular case). But I think I viewed them as any other obstacle in my life. You come across it on the road, and you know where you want to go, and going back is not the direction, so it merely becomes the question “well, what am I going to do about that obstacle?”

And I’m still thinking like that. And really its not just US that we do that kind of work for, is it? Its also for the health and well being of our children, and other people who care about us and whom we love.

(my thoughts are really dancing quickly and with colour these last few days, soemthing creative and growthful is taking place for me I think, some of the remaining puzzle pieces are falling into place and I’m feeling the excitement of growth and clarity – thank gawd , I’ve worked so hard to get here-- so please forgive my unbounded energy in this department right now)

#12

Someone posted this on the other forum after I had left, it is such an apt final word on my discussion there (because it clarified exactly what I was trying to get across), and how this thread is also developing (the bolding is not mine):

 

Quote from: The Myth Of Sanity by Martha Stout

Victim identification presupposes the beliefs that there is a finite group of victims within the larger population, and that one is either a member of this group or not. Membership is (paradoxically) attractive because it affords, first and foremost a sense of belonging, and after that,  all the special status, sympathy and considerations typically given to those who have been preyed upon and hurt. Also as an identity, as something to be, it may fill up the terrifying sense of emptiness that often follows traumas.

Unfortunately, forever holding on to an identity as victim bodes ill for the person's recovery from the very trauma. Holding fast to this way of seeing oneself and the world can keep an individual endlessly beguiled by his own misery. Also, victim identification blinds its subscribers to the leveling fact that we have all - yes, granted some more than others - but we have all been hurt at one time or another. We are in this together: patients, therapists, non-patients, everyone.

For those reasons, it is crucial that a fine balance be struck by therapists, and by anyone wishing to help those with DID, or any other dissociative disorder - in the session room, in the home, in survivors groups, and even in the newly developed context of the mental health Web sites and chat rooms. A survivor of trauma is a victim, certainly; but "victims" does not comprise the totality of her, or anyone's else identity. Helpers must support the healing process in both of its phases: the survivor must endure the discovery that she is a victim, and then she must take responsibility for being that no longer. Both parts are equally important, and in neither phase can self-protection be the primary goal. Enabling someone's long term identity as a victim robs her of an important human right, that of being responsible of her own life.