the more i think about it…the more i realise that the main N sign is this feeling that something isnt"quite right"somehow…its like a second sense almost.
but that is attractive perhaps…the very different person?
BUT the main thing to watch for im sure is the lack of empathy…along with a troubled relationship with the opposite sex parent…BIG RED FLAG…run for the hills?
If I had an insecurity, my relationship was sure to trigger it. It tested me on all levels. I could list red flags all day long… the desire to always be the center of attention… etc… but do those really help. They do help you identify when you’re with or dealing with one, but doesn’t that ususally come after you’re already knee deep? My ex was very adapt and picking up when people were staring to notice her quirks and would intentionally bury them.
Hmmm, how about toxity? It apllies to all bad relationships really. You start feeling bad about yourself and the relationship.
My ex n was very close to his mother,their relationship was pretty impressive,and the lack of empathy surfaced when i had already been knee deep.
I would say that the feeling that we get that something is not right is the big ticket…only we need to figure out why we continue to pursue the relationship.This is where our personal work begins.
does anyone think that this is an"unconscious choice"?
An unconscious choice? Well, I always think out subconscience is involved in everything on some level. I also think my involvement was more like a long series of bad choices. I do think a highly motivating factor was that I didn’t love myself enough to expect better for myself.
I also relate to the whole “comfort zone” statement. As bad as I often say it ways, I found being out of a dysfunctional environment was quite scary. In some weird way I was addicted to drama and was drawn to it. I’m a “fixer”
i put my hands up and admit i am/was a fixer too!
But a lot of investment for very little or no reward…perhaps it is the"roller coaster ride"thing…high highs…low lows…perhaps we adapted to that in our childhoods and unconsciously look for the status quo?..without this perhaps we feel"flat"just a thought!
Reading all these posts made me think about one more thing. Almost everyone here mentioned the unconscious/sub conscience
being involved in our decisions to stick around longer than we should have with our N’s.
To be honest and speaking from purely personal experience, it is now, after being shaken up so badly inside-out that I actually feel/think about my sub conscience. Before getting involved with the N. Since, I was not so paranoid about people and more trusting, I did not notice or think as to why I wanted or was doing certain things.
I hope I’m making myself clear to you. What I mean to say is that after being hit by the N-tornado. I am MORE in touch with myself and my emotions than I ever was before.
Yes,i am definately more in touch with myself and all of my emotions,feelings and quirks.I may have encountered n’s before,and have probably even dated them,but this one was the tipping point for me.Talk about a shakeup!!!
It has been just a little over a year,i look back and see how far i have come,and i am thankful.I have also decided to take time to care for and love me.To explore all of the things that make me,me.With the help and knowledge i am gaining,i no longer walk blindly.I will admit that i am somewhat wary of getting involved again,but with work ,that too shall pass.
In retrospect,i got a high whenever i am persued by someone that i am attracted too,and as red flags appear,i may complain ,but i am too caughtup to letgo.With my ex the pain got intense but i held on.
Could this be our way of showing loyalty or proving committment?Or were we in a state of shock after having been idealized?
yes healed1…i believe this wariness is the protective sheild,that "somethings not quite right"feeling that i truly believe is aquired through dealingwith n relationships.(call it paranoia if you like!)
Also does anyone agree that there is a streak of"people pleasing:in us?
Think its time that we pleased ourselves!
WE are people pleasers and n’s target our caring instinct.N’s tell us their sad childhood stories or lifestories,they are depressed,sad and lonely and we feel the need to take care of them,to fix things.
The moment my n shared a story about his father’s rejection toward him,i subconsciously grew closer to him,so when he behaved inappropriately he was already mine to care for.
The MSN npd group has a section called (Targeting Our Caring Instinct)It states that we show pity too easily and that pity is another socially valuable response and should be reserved for innocent people who are in genuine pain or have fallen on misfortune.Respect should also be reserved for the morally courageous.We also need to challenge our need to be polite in absolutely all situations.
We have to know when something is not our problem.
so they are frauds basically…martyrs that "tune in"to a certain type of empathatic person…?
and being genuinely caribg and empathatic we feel far too much for them and want to take away their pain!!
But perhaps by doingthis we really’take on"thier pain…a classic case of projection and introjection(if we are not careful)
I always found that 'bouncing things back"drove my N wild…how selfish to put thier"crap"on someone else…did they want a person or a so called sounding board?
My ex definately chose people in her life based on the fact that they wouldn’t give her a hard time about her behaviors. If you were the type that would “call her out” she’d move on to the next person.
To be with be with an NPD and know it would require a large amount of unconditional love, and its definately the popular view that its not meant for adults but children. Unconditional love between adults can definately sometimes be very unhealthy. I wouldn’t recommend it and think its a bad idea, but I think it has its place in the world.
i fully agree.
Unnconditional love is open to abuse…and even children can end up with a"false perception of reality"so to speak…in which they can get away with anything.
As Ns i believe are children…perhaps this was a big part of the prob!
I am most definately a fixer, too. I’m getting my degree in Marriage & Family Therapy; the personality profile for many therapists is that of a fixer. It is also brought out in training that while the fixer mentaility is beneficial, the world needs fixers, you had better know yourself really well and learn how to not make yourself responsible in an unhealthy way for fixing people if you are going to be a therpist. Otherwise you will quickly feel used, abused, and burnt out, or your issues will constantly interfere with the work that is really the clients’ work to do/ Behind every fixer there’s a bit of control freak.
I think everyone here needs to give themselves a break in terms of being triggered and trying to fix the N in their life. I had to join the MFT professional association for my state as part of my training and now get the professional magazine sent to me, in the most recent issue, They had an article by and MFT talking about how every six months, she will go over her client list and pick out areas where she see’s she needs more work o herself… where her weakenesses are, as a therapist, where she is most tested, regarding not seeting limits, avoiding confrontation, etc., her last entry specifically addressed her response to clients who present with narcississtic defenses. She continues to address in herself the fact that these clients ‘get to her’ …that she experiences feeling ‘deeply offended’ by these clients and she has to really struggle to maintain her objectivity and not engage in counterproductive behavior with the client. Maybe narcissists should wear little labels that say ‘do not try this at home’ or ‘caution; try to understand at your own risk’ or ‘do not attempt to engage me unless you are professionally trained, and even then, you had better be on your best game.’
Having pointed out that professionals who are specifically trained to handle being ‘triggered’ still find narcissist’s some of the most challenging people to work with…I would still submit that describing them as TRYING or SEEKING to be this way, in some ways is giving them way way too much power. The expereince can feel like they must lay awake at night plotting how to push our buttons, that they are scheming and manipulating to find caring people to suck all the life out of, etc. I don’t think they are really giving it any thought whatsoever! They are instinctually drawn towhat any person is drawn to. Unconditional love, a caring person that will see them and support them and listen to them. The instincts are normal human instincts…the PROBLEM is they lack the maturity needed to engage in reciprocity, empathy, to see and even anticipate the cause and affect of their behavior, etc. But they don’t TRY to be this way, if you see what I mean, anymore than someone TRIES to be depressed, or TRIES to be bi-polar, or TRIES to be schitzophrenic. It just comes naturally to them, they are operating with the skill set they have; you don’t know what you don’t know. They ARE not scheming to FIND that caring person to exploit…they are just doing what we all do, only they do it in an unhealthy, immature way becasue they have not grown up, and it really pissed people off! I don’t point this out to defend the narcissist, I point it out because, when we get into that thinking that theN’s out there are ‘looking’ for targets to exploit, in a weird way it distorts, I think, what is really going on. I’m not saying there aren’t sociopaths in the world that really do view other humans as ‘prey’…but the average narcissist is not a sociopath. If you sense you are w/ a sociopath, get the hell out. None of HAVE to put up with shit expecpt for those of us who may have HAD to grow up in a household w/ an N…but eventually we all get to escape.
Some people who are borderline or narcissistic run for the hills when they realize someone won’t put up w/ their shit. Others, probably on the light end of the spectrum (meaning the defenses are not as firmly entrenched) might start off stubborn per the norm, but really, like a kid, someone with narcissistic defenses can actually respond very well to boundaries and limits because it can be the first time in their life that real limits have been set and explained to them; it can be the first time in their life someone in not putting up w/ their shit, but in a calm, straightforward way, and that can feel incredibly safe compared to the chaos they usually live with. That is why therapy can sometimes work, it is like reparenting again. My bf actually LIKES that I don’t put up with his shit. It’s scary to throw temper tantrums and have everyone in your life look at you like you like you are insane or meet your rage with their own rage and then abandon you (understandably) and then start the whole process over again. Last time he started to get into a bullying, temper tantrum role with me, his affect was so silly, it was like he was so puffed up and full of himself, and barking and issuing commands and orders and ranting in this totally self important way and it was just so comical, I mean, it was pissing me off for sure, but it was also just silly and so overblown and puffed up…he was acting like a Little General and it was triggering me for sure, it really was unsufferable, and all of a sudden I just stood to attention like I was a soldier and I saluted him smartly and with my most serious face I barked out “yes sir, right away SIR!!!” You know what he did? He laughed! He laughed at himself. He could see how silly he was acting, and his whole bullshit tantrum just deflated. It took me a while to get out of MY pissed off mode because I certianly did not appreciate his attitude…but I also refused to take it seriously. What a load of crap! Now, granted, my bf does not have any issues with domestic viloence or anything like that, I feel physcially safe around him, so I felt safe to meet his tantrum with this response. His bullshit is all verbal, psychological, never physical. I don’t think I would have done that if I thought the person had problems with violence. With my bf, Underneath all the bluff and rage and tantruming is a pissed off little kid that was never taught or shown how to modulate his own emotions or how to self sooth. It is easy to feel deeply offended by a narcisssts, they don’t have to TRY to offend you, they are just “naturally” good at it!
Thanks again for taking the time to share that SMG. It validates what I’ve learned and experienced dealing with these too, and I really do appreciate that someone is taking the time to explain what NPD is and what we’re all dealing with.
I found that a lot of the time my exes behavior to me was based on the idea that she had the perception I and the rest of the world were doing the same thing, which is why she stuck so firmly to her actions. She felt justified in doing what she did based on her skewed view. In all actuality, its how I would and do behave when I feel I’m being treated in such a way, though my view isn’t skewed and my actions aren’t inappropriate.
My life got better when I started realizing these things. It was a horrible feeling to think that my ex spent all her spare time plotting ways to get to me and destroy me. It hurt and it was hard to comprehend or understand. It was another matter entirely to realize that it wasn’t so much that she was acting evil, but she was responding to the distorted belief that I was the one at fault. I no longer had to take it personally. I think I’ve heard you say it before, but theres a macbre view of NPD prevelant on the net.
It doesn’t matter so much why they do the things they do, in the end the results of what happen still happen and it feels horrible. I think have an accurate idea of what is occuring helps if you’re involved with one, in danger from one, or trying to get free and escape. This kinda of knowledge goes way beyond just giving someone with NPD therapy, it can help those affected by it.
Sometimes my ex did things out of revenge for a percieved inustice. Sometimes she did it because she didn’t know it was bad. Sometimes it was selfishness. Knowing the difference allowed me to escape from a very difficult situation.
Thanks for sharing what you know. I’ve had hard times and I have a lot of healing to do, and I owe everything I’ve accomplished to the people who’ve stood up and shared their knowledge and experiences.
smg…simply, thanks
Thank you SMG. That was great stuff. I truly understood where you were coming from. You are right that the N’s can be handled if we try hard.
But the thing is that doing normal everyday things around them becomes next to impossible. Like for instance, my ex-N hubby could NEVER do anything alone. He had to have a companion with him. Like once I was busy doing something and asked him to pick up a few groceries. He spent two hours on the phone convincing his friend/neighbor to accompany him to the grocery store. Which was a 5-7 minute walk!
Even THINKING about something like this is ‘tiring’! I wonder where the energy comes from, seriously.
oooh yes…they spend longer with the irrelevant things than the relavant stuff…pickling your head with minute details…you can NEVER be good enough.
And oh do they like finding fault too…it must be hard going to be perfect.!?..and a right pain in the arse too…as they are,when i know it all mode.
wow, what a great thread. Have been catching up, and want to read it all again.
The more I learn, the more I understand that my husband is a text book N and the ex boyfriend is a raving one - aligned to the angels! Very much a case of out of the frying pan and into deep fat frier in my case. Despite my belief that i had it all worked out and could spot an N, I could not have been more wrong, I knew that I was vulnerable, I knew about NPD, and I blew it very badly, so this thread is very helpful to me.
SMG, I am so interseted to read what you share here too, you are doing amazing things and I completely agree that the idea that these people plot and plan to hurt and damage just clouds the issue. In my two experiences I was deeply deeply hurt and treated very badly, but I know that they really could not help it and that is the really really sad part