Thanks everyone for your support. I don’t know what I would do if I didn’t have this forum and the people in it. It’s been so difficult accepting that my Ex is a Narcissist and that everything he says is a lie or 1/2 truth. But I have ACCEPTED it, I understand that I shouldn’t take his behavior personally, this is a recent development for me. Thanks SMG for providing some clarity on the girlfriend issue. I can’t wait to get away from this guy. At first I wanted to talk with him about his Narcissim but I realized I’m not strong enough emotionally to do that yet. Me first, I’m walking away, ENOUGH. Let someone else deal with his shit, I’m out.
Wow, tell me I didn’t just hear this verbatim!!! I’m beginning to see the predictability. I found this on Sam Vankin’s website.
He keeps explaining to anyone who cares to listen that his other sexual partners are nothing to him, meaningless, that he is merely taking advantage of them and that they do not constitute a threat and should not be taken seriously by his spouse.
I know Varkin is straight on. I’m going through this whirlwind of emotion over my husband’s escapades. I know him - I can see exactly what he was doing, these women meant nothing to him other than giving him physical company and service. Tim actually hits on some of this in his poem - pleasure. I know it is horrible - especially on my end, but it makes sense to me now.
I had run ins with two of them when I was cleaning his home out, and I 've read all this correspondance between them. Thing is, these two acted like I was this horrid no body and they held inner keys to him. That was a joke really. I am like - okay chickies, I am here and I rule now, time for you to go bye bye, you really are a nobody and never where. I mean I know he loved me and me only for the last 40 years. I know in my heart sure as the sun comes up tomorrow that these women meant nothing to him at all. There were a couple of them who knew this too.
I have been tempted to send some of the emails he was sending various ones explaining his whereabouts when he was with another, and how he was playing such games with them, but I have restrained myself and been good.
Exactly!
You know, men who behave badly in this world would not have near the success they do if women, and people in general, would always keep in mind that if a person makes comments like this about another lover or someone they supposedly have had some intimate connection with…that they are most likely JERKS and that they will soon be treating YOU the exact same way if they aren’t already.
I do not view ANY of the women my bf has been inappropriate with in our last year together as “rivals”…I see them as being lied to and manipulated, just like he is doing with me. The last time my bf pulled this kind of bs…was when he behind my back called an ex -love interest to inquire if she still had feelings for him…and gave her an ultimatum that either she loves him too, or he wants no further contact w/ her as he cannot just be her “friend”. Mind you, he had this discussion with her while simultaneosly telling me I am the love of his life, he wants nothing but a future w/ me, he would never do anything to jeopardize our relationship blah blah blah. When I found out I was of course livid but I kept my cool. He tried to play the “poor me” angle…“oh, I had to give her an ultimatum becasue she just keeps jumping into my life whenever she wants and messing w/ my head, I had to give her that ultimatum to end it once and for all so that I could concentrate on us…because she is just using me.”
My reply to him:
“BULL-SHIT! This other woman has NO idea the load of crap you have been feeding me for a whole year now, the depth of committment and all the promises you have been front loading with me. She has NO idea about ALL that, just as I had no idea you were speaking w/ her behind my back and trying to initiate some tortured love affair w/ her WHILE lying to me! The only people being USED in this little scenario you created is this other woman and ME…BY YOU!”
By the way, this woman from his past is married w/ two children. She has made it clear to him she is trying to get back on track w/ her husband and is in counseling w/ her husband, she wants to save her family etc. She told him, when he gave her his ‘ultimatum’ that she can’t possibly give him anything but friendship.
But …what if she had said something different? What if she were going through a low point w/ her husband and was feeling sad, lonely or desperate when my bf called? My bf’s call to her may have, under those circumstances, seemed like a life-line to her. What if she had heard his ultimatum and said “Okay…I love you too…I’m leaving my husband, putting myself on a plane with the kids and we’ll see you tomorrow”. I asked him that very question, what if this woman had recirprocated your feelings? His reply: “I would have had to tell her that nothing could come of it because I was in a relationship with you?”
(okay first of all, this is likely a big fat lie as that makes no sense…but he probably thought it would “make me feel better” thus helping to get him off-the hook with me…but to me…that anwer is SO messed-up on soooo many levels I could hardly keep my head from exploding)
Once my head stopped reverberating like the perverbial cartoon charactar that has just been hit with a frying pan, my reply to him was:
"Really? So because you were having a bad self esteem day, you chose to 1) betray me behind my back as well as 2) mind f–k a married woman with two children who is just trying to get her life together? NOT because you were really ready to offer her anything substantial…but because hearing her possibly say I LOVE YOU TOO…would have made you feel better about yourself for 5 minutes…and THAT was all that mattered, that you feel better. Meanwhile you didn’t give a single thought to what effect it might have on HER life or MY life. Not one single thought. "
Do not let men, or women, get away with this bs. If he is treating another woman like she is disposable, you can bet he will be doing the same to you as soon as the opportunity presents itself. DON’T EVER FALL FOR THE ‘SHE’S NOT AS IMPORTANT TO ME AS YOU ARE BS’, or any version of such bs. When someone is doing that, they are showing their true colors, that they are comfortable using and exploiting people. If more women/menbanned together and refused to fall for or participate in this kind of behavior, the N’s of the world would have a lot more trouble pulling this crap. They are tying to play to our own narcissism, vanity and insecurity (ooooh, I must be better, smarter, prettier than that OTHER woman, he likes ME best). Don’t let it happen, and don’t fall for it. That OTHER WOMAN ihe is casually dismissing is a human being too, and if you fall for this game, soon you will be standing in her shoes.
Dee, I am not condoning the behavior. I don’t think Varkin was either. I just read what you referred to and I think he was just describing what N’s typically say to extramarital affairs. And I know that the affairs mine had, the women did not mean anything to him other than the attention, affection, supply whatever he got from whomever. I can see that in his writings to them.
In my case, my relationship with my N goes back to when we were teenagers. The narcissistic qualities were there but the disorder was not in the beginning, some warning signs maybe but not disorder. That really did not start expressing significantly until maybe when he was 26-27 years old and that lasted for a few years, than greatly improved. Of course, at that time he was drinking extremely heavily and subsequently stopped. Yes he was very difficult but I do not believe he was ever unfaithful to me at all. And I do believe I am the only woman he ever loved. Our relationship really was not about me giving him narcissistic supply in the beginning, and my failure to do so is I am sure, why he left.
In his late 40’s, another major serious depression hit. There was a very major life crisis of sorts in his work. (another story, or some chapters that could be added in a few books already written about it) In my opinion, he went over the edge around that time and had a real break. The kids and I all were demanding that he had to get help - it was very bad. He took it as rejection, he had met this woman and disappeared with her. From everything I have been able to learn - everyone’s opinion who met her, she was a two bit low class hustler. I have little doubt she blew hard, glorified his ego, belittled me and his kids - yes she understood he really was great - narcissistic supplier major. Apparently, the heavy drinking came back with her. They end up in another state and she plays these lies with him in presenting a phoney persona about themselves - not just him, she is playing too. I seriously doubt this woman was capable of caring about anyone - she had found a doctor and played it for every penny it was worth. He never married her. From what people told me, he finally had to get her evicted out of the house they had rented, literally threw her out on the street with a get major lost with everyone else clapping and cheering.
He came back to me but our kids by that time hated his guts, and thought he only would hurt us again. He was absolutely incapable of reconciling with them, he could not comprehend the hurt he had caused, and he could not take their rejection. A year ago, he told me had cancer and was dying, and to leave him be. He would not talk to me after that. That is when the women started. He told them he was dying, along with all kinds of other stories. The drinking apparently was really bad. The alcohol is what killed him - I do not know yet if he in fact had cancer or not. I am trying to get medical records to resolve that.
From what I have seen of the correspondence, he was playing them and vice versa. I have not found a one of them that I feel empathy for. There is one nice doctor that he talked to every day for the last two years on the internet - via the camera. She has been talking to me and doing her best to convince me that his heart belonged to me and his kids. He talked about us all the time - not honest but he was incapable of that. It seems to me at the end that he had left reality. Nonetheless, she believes she saw into his heart. These conversations are just tearing me up but I always felt the same in my heart and I have to finish these out. Today she mentioned how much he loved biology and the significance of his work to him, and I really broke. He did. He use to go to the schools and do science labs. He was so brilliant and he did love his work so much - he could bring it down and explain it on whatever level and just so enthrall the kids with the wonders of nature. His love showed to anyone who saw him do these things.
Anyway, this is getting too long. I have just noticed in listening to others that they may be entering the NPDs life at different times, stages, etc., and the relationships may be about different things.
btdt100, I agree with you there. When my Ex and I met we were on the same level. I just got a job working for a major phamaceutical and he started a new job working as a carpenter. He griped about the pay and the crazy boss he had to deal with. He quit after 2 months and started jumping from job to job always quitting or getting fired. After awhile I didn’t know what to do for him. All I could do was watch and pray he would work through this phase of his life. I think he never recovered from a life in the service. He made good money in the service, had rank, responsibilities and respect. But like many verterans his skills didn’t translate to the civilian world. He was distraught and considered his service to this country a waste of time, 6 years of service and nothing to show for it. In the meantime my job payed well, I worked, saved and payed of debts stayed focused and eventually bought a house. And let me tell you it wasn’t easy, he tried to stop me at every turn. You save too much, you spend too much, all you do is work, all you care about is money, I bust my butt while you sit at your cushy corporate job. He broke up with me once after getting fired from a construction job. I was beside myself and I didn’t understand. Looking back he felt like he didn’t deserve me, he couldn’t live up to my standards. I wanted to stand by him. I wanted to by a home and make a place for us. I wanted to start a construction company with him and flip houses! He couldn’t by into this dream he stopped believing in his own power, so he critized and belittled me constantly. He felt convicted by my success. I would sit with my head in my hands trying to figure out what to do.
I think the women came into play when he couldn’t create value through work. Juggling three women makes him feel powerful. His friends look up to him and think he’s amazing! He can’t pay a bill but he sure is hot with the ladies!
I’m glad that you have his friend to give you perspective and closure. Try to forgive him, he’s already paid the ultimate price for his transgressions. There’s nothing more to do and nothing more to be said. Forgive him and have pitty, the last years of his life sound absolutely horrible. Drinking and blood sucking women! Grieve his life and let the women go. I’m sure he loved you and it sounds like there were good times between you. Hold on to that. You couldn’t save him, in the end it wasn’t your work to do.
btdt100,
You post came in almost simultaneous to mine, I don’t want you to think I was responding directly to your post…The kind of relationship and the years you had with your husband is a far cry from the dynanics of a simple “player”. Your story is fascinating…the last year of his life does sound like he wast only reaching out for whatever he could. And, sadly, there are women who will glom onto any man with some money and some prestige regardless of his circumstances…and they are like vampires.
I also found your story interesting in that you are sure he was faithful to you for many years during the marriage, and that his illness had phases, with the end spiraling into something truly tragic. It sounds like he was a brilliant man with many gifts, and I would bet that his work and his spirit touched many many lives in a positive way. So often the most brilliant of minds are also the most troubled minds. Just reading about your story though, I can so understand why you loved him.
Dee, This man definitely had a beautiful mind, like a walking encyclopedia. And I see the false self as the person he wanted to be. And that was a super guy, best husband, best father, his career was about making a difference, not just pursuing money. He was not a “rotter” as his friend described to me. And I think that is the character development that he had growing up and is who he would have been if all his faculties had worked and he not had the disorder.
What is strange to me is that he was deeply compassionate and I think empathic for physical pains - even mine. He just really could not empathize on emotional pain. And while being exceptionally manipulative with people, even to the good, he could not assess his actions and how people reacted to his shit.
Most people adored him. Here when his break came, oh he told vicious lies on me. There were people who hated me for being so cruel and hurting him so. Then in time after he disappeared, everyone figured out it wasn’t me, I had no boyfriends, no girlfriends, he wasn’t helping as we lost the house, no relationship with his kids, they didn’t know where he was, etc. They still adored him but everyone realized he had cracked up.
His next door neighbor in Florida cried to me over his death. She was Iraqi, married to a doctor. Had just been in the country maybe 3 years I think. She had trouble with English but I got the message from her. Her husband was something of a narcissist, very controlling, domineering, oh I wasn’t to tell him she talked to me even. My husband had reached out and treated her like a human being, an equal. Somehow he touched her heart and reached through to her pain. Another woman told me how he was so incredibly compassionate and touching to her when she had a child die. You know, even if it was false and phoney, self motivated for supply, whatever doesn’t really matter, he still touched so many in very special ways. And I have to reconcile all that with all the hurt he caused me and his kids that he was oblivious to.
PLEASE EXCUSE ME, IT IS CALLED EMDRIA.ORG.
EMDR International Association (EMDRIA) is a professional association
where practitioners and researchers seek the highest standards for
the clinical use of EMDR. By promoting training, research and the
sharing of the latest clinical information, EMDRIA is committed to
assuring that therapists are knowledgeable and skilled in the
methodology of EMDR which is an accepted psychotherapy by leading
mental health organizations throughout the world. This website
provides information and services to the greater EMDR community
including clinicians, researchers, and the public that our members
serve. Scott Blech, CAE, Executive Director
On Oct 2, 2007, at 3:21 PM, hopetoday wrote:
OK, Everybody. I’m coming out of the closet for Hopetoday
Drum Roll Please…
I was not in the hospital because of bronchitis. Though I did have bronchitis and I was in bad shape.
I was hospitalized for severe depression.
My therapist was suggesting I take antidepressants for a long time and I didn’t want to do it. I thought I could handle it. Then that thursday I had a really bad night. I was fighting not to hurt myself over this issue with my ex. I was so hurt and devasted. Not to mention the financial pressures I had regarding my house. I was in so much pain. When I woke up on Friday morning I decided to get help. I called a Psychologist who can prescribe medication for depression and made an appointment. He saw me immediately and when I went to his office I was hysterically crying. He overreacted and had me hospitalized. My therapist was livid!! While I was definately distraught my therapist felt I didn’t need to be hospitalized because I was managing my own care by asking for help. The medical industry likes to cover their asses due to law suits etc. If he let me go and I hurt myself he would be liable. I was pissed, it was the most humiliating experience of my life. I was escorted by police to an ambulance which took me to the hospital and the paramedics escorted me into the emergency room. I wasn’t alone for a second cause I tried to make a break for it, LOL. My family screamed and yelled all weekend and on Monday I was released into my Mothers custody. I’ve been on antidepressants since mid august and I feel like a different person. I still get sad, I still cry, but I don’t feel like the world is coming to an end.
This is difficult for me to share because of the personal nature. But I do believe in sharing my experiences if it helps others and now that some time has passed I don’t feel so sensitive about it anymore.
So Hopetoday, I came out the closet for ya. Please take care of yourself.
THANK YOU!!!
You really truly are so kind and helpful!
ALL OF YOU!!!
It means a lot to me. thanks
MAY I SUGGEST THE SAME THING I SUGGESTED TO HOPETODAY.
IT IS CALLED ENTMP…IT IS ABOUT 12 YEARS
OLD AND IT PUTS YOU IN A TRANSE LIKE STATE…AS I TOLD MY
THERAPIST TODAY, IT IS LIKE
UNCLOGGING YOUR TOILET, YOU FEEL SO CLEAN AFTERWARDS. YOU REMOVE THE
TOXIC GUNK
FROM YOUR BRAIN THAT IS SENDING THE SAME NASTY MESSAGES. IT WILL
NUMB YOU FROM
YOUR NARCISSIST, SO YOU CAN BE CLEAR ABOUT THE DECISIONS YOU NEED TO
MAKE…
On Oct 2, 2007, at 3:09 PM, DoubleDee wrote:
Thanks bup, I’m doing well but it doesn’t hurt to ask about this procedure.
It REALLY HELPS. I feel like I am numb from the abuse…It is still
there, but I sort of chuckle about how pathetic they all are
now…They use it on VIETNAM VETS…SOMETIMES DON’T YOU FEEL
AS IF YOU HAVE BEEN THROUGH A WAR?.. Please do it… It
is similar to being
hypnotized to stop smoking. It cleans you out of your DEEPEST
PAIN…like a root canal…
EMDRIA.ORG…
On Oct 3, 2007, at 9:49 AM, DoubleDee wrote: