Sam, about this link "thing"

I broke down, this one time, and thought I'd skim down the list of copious links and see if anything stood out, so I clicked on this one: Mirror, Mirror ... (Toronto Sun) http://www.canoe.ca/NewsSta...tyle/2004/08/30/608650.html

All it had was 2 sentences and then a request to pay $10 if I wanted to read the rest!

I Googled the title and author and dug it up whole on this site for free: 

http://lifewise.canoe.ca/Living/2005/02/23/939918.html

 

I read that article all the way through and only at the end did it say anything particular about partners of N's, and that was that they were submissive and gullible...of which I am neither.

 

(sigh)

 

so I'm wondering, do you have anything to say or contribute constructively to the topic of my N/ASP always wanting to choose a woman with a moral compass, when he himself doesnt have one?

 

And regretfully, since this one time I clicked on your link was so frustratingly empty, I dont know that I'll be wanting to take another chance at that again.  I dont know if thats helpful to you , if that would make you want to post links with any more care or delicacy, but just in case you will, there you go.

 

:(

Phoenix,

Instead of preaching ceaselessly and telling all of us what we should and
should not be doing, why don’t you simply communicate? We are not your
patients (thank heavens).

You have made your point a thousand times: you are not going to click on
links. Great. Don’t click on links. Just don’t clutter our email inboxes
everytime you DON’T click on links. We got the message loud and clear.

Phonenix wrote:

“I read that article all the way through and only at the end did it say
anything particular about partners of N’s, and that was that they were
submissive and gullible…of which I am neither.”

Sam:

Phoenix is bullshitting (not to say lying). Here is the article. Judge for
yourselves. Why Phoenix chooses to misprepresent (lie about) the article is
anyone’s guess.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/Lifestyle/2004/08/30/608650.html

Mon, August 30, 2004

Mirror mirror …

CHANCES ARE YOU EITHER KNOW A NARCISSIST OR YOU ARE ONE

By JOANNE RICHARD, TORONTO SUN

You haven’t even had your morning coffee and he’s at it again – building
himself up and tearing you down, exaggerating his accomplishments and
diminishing yours. He’s an arrogant s.o.b. with an insatiable appetite for
attention, admiration, affirmation and applause; his domineering demands,
egotistical pursuit of self-gratification and malicious, rage-filled rants
are making your life a living hell.

Welcome to his vile web of narcissistic indulgence and inflated grandiosity
… and he’s not alone.

“It is my contention that narcissism is the mental epidemic of the 20th
century,” says Dr. Sam Vaknin, a self-admitted pathological narcissist who
has authored a detailed, first-hand account entitled Malignant Self Love –
Narcissism Revisited.

“Pathological narcissism is now considered to be at the heart of phenomena
as diverse as corporate malfeasance, workplace bullying, domestic violence
and serial killings,” says Vaknin, who has been studying narcissism for
several years, mostly in corporate settings and dysfunctional/abusive
relationships.

According to Vaknin, “Narcissism is named after the ancient Greek myth of
Narcissus who was a handsome Greek youth who rejected the desperate advances
of the nymph Echo. In punishment of his cruelty, he was doomed to fall in
love with his own reflection in a pool of water. Unable to consummate his
love, he pined away and changed into the flower that bears his name to this
very day.”

Narcissists are infatuated and obsessed with themselves to the exclusion of
all others. “It is characterized by a lack of empathy, grandiose fantasies,
an overpowering sense of entitlement – disproportionate with the
narcissist’s accomplishments or skills – as well as arrogance, pernicious
envy and exploitativeness,” says Vaknin, adding that 75% of all narcissists
are men. “A narcissist is a drug addict whose drug is attention.”

Toronto therapist Betty Stockley says that in the past two weeks she has
actually come across three cases involving narcissism – mostly victims of a
self-consumed, scornful boss or partner.

‘SELF IMPORTANCE’

“Narcissists have feelings of grand self importance and want others on their
knees in gratitude. They tell people, ‘you’re lucky to date me or work for
me,’ and they’re very convincing,” says Stockley, adding that generally
narcissists seek treatment only if they have something to lose.

“Narcissism is more common than most people realize, and if it happens to
you, you’d best be prepared,” says Dr. Rick Kirschner. “The effects of
living with or working with a narcissist are legion. Perhaps this is because
of the many ways a narcissist can behave badly. All in all, living with or
working with a narcissist can cause great stress, misery and aggravation.”

According to Kirschner, “Some degree of self-interest is necessary to
survive. And true accomplishment is deserving of acknowledgement and praise.
But when a person sees themself as the centre of everyone else’s universe,
then Houston, you’ve got a problem.”

Most narcissists disregard social norms, morals and laws and often feel
invincible, immune and above-the-law, says Vaknin, whose malignant
self-absorption landed him a one-year jail sentence for stock manipulation.
"My nine-year-old marriage dissolved, my finances were in a shocking
condition, my family estranged, my reputation ruined, my personal freedom
severely curtailed.

“Slowly, the realization that it was all my fault, that I was sick and
needed help penetrated the decades-old defences I had erected around me. So,
the book is also a documentation of a road of self-discovery, a kind of
do-it-yourself personal autopsy,” says Vaknin. “It was a painful process,
which led to nowhere. I am no different – and no healthier – today than I
was when I wrote this book. My disorder is here to stay; the prognosis is
poor and alarming.”

According to Stockley, the disorder is frequently related to attachment
issues in childhood where there was no true connection made, usually with
the parents.

Vaknin agrees: “Every human being develops healthy narcissism early in life.
Healthy narcissism is rendered pathological by abuse – and abuse, alas, is
a common human behaviour. By abuse, I mean any form of refusal to
acknowledge the emerging boundaries of the individual. Thus, smothering,
doting, and excessive expectations are as abusive as beating and incest.”

According to Vaknin, there are two differences between healthy self-love and
narcissistic personality disorder “in the ability to tell reality from
fantasy, and in the ability to empathize and, indeed, to fully and maturely
love others.”

He says that “maintaining a distinction between what we really are and what
we dream of becoming, knowing our limits, our advantages and faults and
having true, realistic accomplishments in our life are of paramount
importance in the establishment and maintenance of our self-esteem, sense of
self-worth and self-confidence.”

Meanwhile, Vaknin, who is certified in psychological counselling techniques,
says that when it comes to dealing with narcissists, there is only one
remedy: "Utterly ignore them. Narcissists can’t stand being ignored and they
go away … A relationship with a narcissist invariably ends in abuse and
tears.

“Narcissists treat other people as objects, mere instruments of
gratification, to be used, abused, and unceremoniously discarded. The
victims of narcissists are traumatized and scarred for life,” he says,
adding that this destructive disease forever changes those around him.

SUBMISSIVE PARTNER

Narcissists are never whole without an adoring, submissive, self-denigrating
partner. “The victim’s gullibility, selective blindness, malignant optimism
are the weapons of the narcissist,” says Vaknin.

Kirschner adds that adult pathological narcissists rarely get better. “So if
you’re suffering and miserable because of someone’s narcissism, you would be
well advised to cut your losses and vote with your feet,” says Kirschner, of
TheArtofChange.com.

For more info on narcissism, see Vaknin’s work and Web site at
Narcissistic-abuse.com.


NARCISSUS

According to writer Bob Goodman, in Greek mythology, the gods cast a
pernicious spell on Narcissus as punishment for his refusal to love others.
Peering into a pool of water, Narcissus sees a beautiful being and falls
madly in love, never realizing that the object of his affection is nothing
more than his own reflection. His love unrequited, Narcissus pines away and
perishes, leaving only a flower in his wake.

“From this myth comes the term ‘narcissism.’ The psychological condition of
narcissism in extremis, known as ‘Narcissistic Personality Disorder,’ was
first given medical credence by the American Psychiatric Association in
1980. Those under the spell of NPD share a penchant for compulsive
self-promotion, doomed grandiosity, and aggressive avoidance of empathy.”


HOW TO SPOT A NARCISSIST

Think you might be caught up in a grand illusion? Is your haughty honey or
overbearing boss in constant need of a fan club?

Check to see how many of these points apply:

  • Grandiose statements and frequent, unwarranted boasting and lying.

  • Feelings of unbounded entitlement and haughty superiority.

  • A consistent and energy-draining pattern of exploitation.

  • Blames every mistake of his, every failure, or mishap on others, or on the
    world at large.

  • Hypersensitive and hyper-vigilant – picks fights, feels constantly
    slighted, injured and insulted.

  • Cruel, lacks compassion.

  • A history of battering or violent offences or behaviour coupled with
    serial jobs and relationships.

  • Possessive, control freak, and excessive, explosive jealousy.

  • Lacks respect for your personal boundaries, wishes and privacy.

  • Rapid cycling – between moods, between idealizing and devaluing you,
    between preferences and beliefs, etc.

If you have answered “yes” to any of the above – stay away, warns Dr. Sam
Vaknin. Your guy could be a narcissistic abuser.

END OF ARTICLE

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “thephoenix101” npd-cpt6889@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 3:10 PM
Subject: [npd] Sam, about this link “thing”…

Um…i’m bullshitting?

about what?

I told you what I did, what happened, what I did instead, what I read, what it lacked and what I requested instead.

where’s the bullshit?

Also, I guess I thought youd’ be a little thankful to know one of your links was fruitless because it only gives a few sentences and then asks for $10 to retrieve the rest and I supplied the link I searched for and found instead that has the entire article, so that you might want to change your link list for future reference.

I didnt expect to get blasted for it.

Also, I didnt put any "should"s in my post, but instead said, “I dont know if thats anything you want to do something about, but there ya go”. I left it in your hands. It wasnt a lecture Sam, if you want to see a lecture, preaching or “shoulds” you can find plenty of those on this forum but theyre related to bullying.

Everything else is, to my eyes anyway, very clear statements and requests.

I’m serious, if you think theres bullshitting and lying going on go ahead and call me on it, but I’m telling you, everything I said in my post was true. I have no reason to make any of it up.

where’s the bullshit?

Sam:

You wrote:

“I read that article all the way through and only at the end did it say
anything particular about partners of N’s, and that was that they were
submissive and gullible…of which I am neither.”

Sam:

What you wrote above is NOT TRUE. It’s bullshit. The article deals with
partners of narcissists from the FIRST sentence onwards.

Here is the article:

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/Lifestyle/2004/08/30/608650.html

Mon, August 30, 2004

Mirror mirror …

CHANCES ARE YOU EITHER KNOW A NARCISSIST OR YOU ARE ONE

By JOANNE RICHARD, TORONTO SUN

You haven’t even had your morning coffee and he’s at it again – building
himself up and tearing you down, exaggerating his accomplishments and
diminishing yours. He’s an arrogant s.o.b. with an insatiable appetite for
attention, admiration, affirmation and applause; his domineering demands,
egotistical pursuit of self-gratification and malicious, rage-filled rants
are making your
life a living hell.

Welcome to his vile web of narcissistic indulgence and inflated grandiosity
… and he’s not alone.

“It is my contention that narcissism is the mental epidemic of the 20th
century,” says Dr. Sam Vaknin, a self-admitted pathological narcissist who
has authored a detailed, first-hand account entitled Malignant Self Love –
Narcissism Revisited.

“Pathological narcissism is now considered to be at the heart of phenomena
as diverse as corporate malfeasance, workplace bullying, domestic violence
and serial killings,” says Vaknin, who has been studying narcissism for
several years, mostly in corporate settings and dysfunctional/abusive
relationships.

According to Vaknin, “Narcissism is named after the ancient Greek myth of
Narcissus who was a handsome Greek youth who rejected the desperate advances
of the nymph Echo. In punishment of his cruelty, he was doomed to fall in
love with his own reflection in a pool of water. Unable to consummate his
love, he
pined away and changed into the flower that bears his name to this
very day.”

Narcissists are infatuated and obsessed with themselves to the exclusion of
all others. “It is characterized by a lack of empathy, grandiose fantasies,
an overpowering sense of entitlement – disproportionate with the
narcissist’s accomplishments or skills – as well as arrogance, pernicious
envy and exploitativeness,” says Vaknin, adding that 75% of all narcissists
are men. “A narcissist is a drug addict whose drug is attention.”

Toronto therapist Betty Stockley says that in the past two weeks she has
actually come across three cases involving narcissism – mostly victims of a
self-consumed, scornful boss or partner.

‘SELF IMPORTANCE’

“Narcissists have feelings of grand self importance and want others on their
knees in gratitude. They tell people, ‘you’re lucky to date me or work for
me,’ and they’re very convincing,” says Stockley, adding that generally
narcissists seek treatment only if
they have something to lose.

“Narcissism is more common than most people realize, and if it happens to
you, you’d best be prepared,” says Dr. Rick Kirschner. “The effects of
living with or working with a narcissist are legion. Perhaps this is because
of the many ways a narcissist can behave badly. All in all, living with or
working with a narcissist can cause great stress, misery and aggravation.”

According to Kirschner, “Some degree of self-interest is necessary to
survive. And true accomplishment is deserving of acknowledgement and praise.
But when a person sees themself as the centre of everyone else’s universe,
then Houston, you’ve got a problem.”

Most narcissists disregard social norms, morals and laws and often feel
invincible, immune and above-the-law, says Vaknin, whose malignant
self-absorption landed him a one-year jail sentence for stock manipulation.
"My nine-year-old marriage dissolved, my finances were in a shocking
condition, my family estranged, my
reputation ruined, my personal freedom
severely curtailed.

“Slowly, the realization that it was all my fault, that I was sick and
needed help penetrated the decades-old defences I had erected around me. So,
the book is also a documentation of a road of self-discovery, a kind of
do-it-yourself personal autopsy,” says Vaknin. “It was a painful process,
which led to nowhere. I am no different – and no healthier – today than I
was when I wrote this book. My disorder is here to stay; the prognosis is
poor and alarming.”

According to Stockley, the disorder is frequently related to attachment
issues in childhood where there was no true connection made, usually with
the parents.

Vaknin agrees: “Every human being develops healthy narcissism early in life.
Healthy narcissism is rendered pathological by abuse – and abuse, alas, is
a common human behaviour. By abuse, I mean any form of refusal to
acknowledge the emerging boundaries of the individual. Thus, smothering,
doting,
and excessive expectations are as abusive as beating and incest.”

According to Vaknin, there are two differences between healthy self-love and
narcissistic personality disorder “in the ability to tell reality from
fantasy, and in the ability to empathize and, indeed, to fully and maturely
love others.”

He says that “maintaining a distinction between what we really are and what
we dream of becoming, knowing our limits, our advantages and faults and
having true, realistic accomplishments in our life are of paramount
importance in the establishment and maintenance of our self-esteem, sense of
self-worth and self-confidence.”

Meanwhile, Vaknin, who is certified in psychological counselling techniques,
says that when it comes to dealing with narcissists, there is only one
remedy: "Utterly ignore them. Narcissists can’t stand being ignored and they
go away … A relationship with a narcissist invariably ends in abuse and
tears.

“Narcissists treat other people as objects,
mere instruments of
gratification, to be used, abused, and unceremoniously discarded. The
victims of narcissists are traumatized and scarred for life,” he says,
adding that this destructive disease forever changes those around him.

SUBMISSIVE PARTNER

Narcissists are never whole without an adoring, submissive, self-denigrating
partner. “The victim’s gullibility, selective blindness, malignant optimism
are the weapons of the narcissist,” says Vaknin.

Kirschner adds that adult pathological narcissists rarely get better. “So if
you’re suffering and miserable because of someone’s narcissism, you would be
well advised to cut your losses and vote with your feet,” says Kirschner, of
TheArtofChange.com.

For more info on narcissism, see Vaknin’s work and Web site at
Narcissistic-abuse.com.


NARCISSUS

According to writer Bob Goodman, in Greek mythology, the gods cast a
pernicious spell on Narcissus as punishment for his refusal to love others.
Peering into a pool of water,
Narcissus sees a beautiful being and falls
madly in love, never realizing that the object of his affection is nothing
more than his own reflection. His love unrequited, Narcissus pines away and
perishes, leaving only a flower in his wake.

“From this myth comes the term ‘narcissism.’ The psychological condition of
narcissism in extremis, known as ‘Narcissistic Personality Disorder,’ was
first given medical credence by the American Psychiatric Association in
1980. Those under the spell of NPD share a penchant for compulsive
self-promotion, doomed grandiosity, and aggressive avoidance of empathy.”


HOW TO SPOT A NARCISSIST

Think you might be caught up in a grand illusion? Is your haughty honey or
overbearing boss in constant need of a fan club?

Check to see how many of these points apply:

  • Grandiose statements and frequent, unwarranted boasting and lying.

  • Feelings of unbounded entitlement and haughty superiority.

  • A consistent and energy-draining pattern of
    exploitation.

  • Blames every mistake of his, every failure, or mishap on others, or on the
    world at large.

  • Hypersensitive and hyper-vigilant – picks fights, feels constantly
    slighted, injured and insulted.

  • Cruel, lacks compassion.

  • A history of battering or violent offences or behaviour coupled with
    serial jobs and relationships.

  • Possessive, control freak, and excessive, explosive jealousy.

  • Lacks respect for your personal boundaries, wishes and privacy.

  • Rapid cycling – between moods, between idealizing and devaluing you,
    between preferences and beliefs, etc.

If you have answered “yes” to any of the above – stay away, warns Dr. Sam
Vaknin. Your guy could be a narcissistic abuser.

END OF ARTICLE

Sam

Right, you posted the article that I found on another website twice now, which actually proves my point. Its written TO the partner but there is nothing ABOUT the partner until the end:
“Narcissists are never whole without an adoring, submissive, self-denigrating
partner. “The victim’s gullibility, selective blindness, malignant optimism
are the weapons of the narcissist,” says Vaknin.”

Which is fine, except its a very little bit about the partner in quite a lot about the N…and…it doesnt address the issue this thread is about, which I’m very interested in in this moment…why he wants a woman with a moral compass when he has none.

I’m still interested in that.

If you want to talk about partners of N’s being submissive, gullible or adoring we can do that, sure , I’d probably have something to say, but thats not what the thread was about.

C’mon, you get what I’m saying dont you?

Here’s whats on the link you supplied:
Mon, August 30, 2004

Mirror mirror …

CHANCES ARE YOU EITHER KNOW A NARCISSIST OR YOU ARE ONE

By JOANNE RICHARD, TORONTO SUN
You haven’t even had your morning coffee and he’s at it again – building himself up and tearing you down, exaggerating his accomplishments and diminishing yours. He’s an arrogant s.o.b. with an insatiable appetite for attention, admiration, affirmation and applause; his domineering demands, egotistical pursuit of self-gratification and malicious, rage-filled rants are making your life a living hell.
The story you are searching for is available in its entirety via email, fax or mail for $10.00, payable with credit card (include expiry date).

Just call the Sun Media News Research Centre at 416-947-2258 or toll free at 1-877-624-1463 with information about the story and supply the following:

Name of credit card, number and expiry date on card

Your name, mailing address and phone number (we will mail you a receipt).

Fax number, if you wish the story to be faxed

I dont think thats what you intended someone to find when they clicked on one of your links I’ve learned my lesson now though, dont dare notify you if you’ve got dead links…got it. Sorry to have bothered you.

Foul language…

GD