I was wondering, you tell folks like me to run not walk away from their N partners…
What is it like to believe that and have someone who loves, cares about and stays with you?
Phoenix:
Do you find your fear and heartbreak tempers your N tendencies while youre
with her at all?
(if thse are too personal questions by all means let me know)
Sam:
My life is an open book (actually, 10 books)…:o)))
My pathological narcissistic traits and behaviors are not tampered or
modified by my relationship with my wife.
That makes for an even sadder story then given what you just wrote earlier about how N’s see and respond to weakness in others.
:(…
I hope things can be as painless as possible for both of you.
A conflict between my vile, twisted head and my vile, twisted, heart.
I pity her as I would a trapped animal. I am heartbroken to see her waning
and disintegrating, so forlorn and lost, profoundly sad and hurt, sick, both
in body and in soul. But I need her, I depend on her, I am terrified of
losing her.
Read what happened to me the last time I lost my spouse:
http://gorgelink.org/vaknin/lastdays-en.html
Sam
Phoenix:
I was wondering, you tell folks like me to run not walk away from their N
partners…
What is it like to believe that and have someone who loves, cares about and
stays with you?
__
Those are poignant and painful words. I’m sorry to hear she’s not doing well. I had no idea.
It sounds like you have something sweet holding you together. I’m glad for that for both of you.
Do you find your fear and heartbreak tempers your N tendencies while youre with her at all?
(if thse are too personal questions by all means let me know)
Sam,
I pity her as I would a trapped animal. I am heartbroken to see her waning
and disintegrating, so forlorn and lost, profoundly sad and hurt, sick, both
in body and in soul. But I need her, I depend on her, I am terrified of
losing her.
You are one sick little fecker…to relish that so blatantly…because that is all you are doing…
shudders
…people who are “heartbroken” to see such things BEHAVE THEMSELVES and put a stop to it…you are a sentient lifeform, you can choose to do that starting RIGHT NOW if you wish.
GD
I suddenly remembered the main character in Memento and the heartbreaking story behind his wife’s death.
wow…I’m so sad now…
and wishing I could rewrite scripts.
I instantly grasped the stark futility of any war I’d wage to bring her back.
Sam - That statement struck me - did you feel it futile because her mind was that made up, or because it just didn’t matter enough to you to expend the energy? Does that question make sense?
It is simply that I am used to losses and resigned to them:
http://samvak.tripod.com/narcissistloss.html
http://samvak.tripod.com/journal61.html
Sam
Sam,
One more thing; my ex-husband is like the “perfect” son. He is so good to his parents who didn’t give him the time of day growing up. He is constantly calling them, taking them out, buying them things, and sending them on vacations. Anything they want, he does. He is consistent with his relationship with them. His only good example to my sons is the way he treats his parents. When married, I had to constantly have them over for dinner–no matter how exhausted. What’s with that?
Thanks for your expertise knowledge on this subject, it is very helpful
Mariel:
Narcissists will only please WHO THEY WANT TO PLEASE AND FOR THEIR OWN REASONS. THERE IS NO EMPATHY. NO ONE can understand their twisted logic.
Example: When my mother was dying (at 60 of lung cancer) she left a painting( and little else specifically) she had done of a mother daughter collecting shells. She verbally told me it was mine on her death bed. My N father WOULD NOT BELIEVE ME. His 90 year old x boss (has everything in the world was willing to give him $3000.00 for it) and so he told me no. I literally rocked back and forth for days and I finally pitched a bitch. MY OWN MOTHER GAVE IT TO ME, PLEASE, PLEASE understand what it means to me…I AM THE ONLY DAUGHTER…He finally gave it to me. His female boss died 3 months later. Her family would have inherited MY painting, and probably would have cared less about it…
mariel, i doubt if sam will respond in dialogue.
i identify with all the things you ae describing, he loves his kids, he loves his parents, he loves his wife, but not as you or i understand it.
My H can scream and call my daughter a f—ing c–t, yet will have tears rollin down his face if she insults him, and the situation damands it - ie he has something to gain.
he idealises his parents and siblings, mostly because they can take him or leave him, and he needs his grandiosity, ‘great family’ type stuff …unlike his spouse or his kids, who are faced with him up close and personal due to the dynamics of family life. just as he can be the perfect ‘friend’ … thats cos friends dont have to put up with anything uncomfortable… parents, siblings, friends…they can go back to their own daily routine, but the N knows that they know somethings not right, but as adults the N can be the perfect child or sibling, and most families are happy to keep that status quo, and hence will sit back and enjoy…enjoy pretending that all is well, cos they can!!! what else can they do!! only the brave would help or support you or even your kids. Who would look for fault in their very scary brother/son? Only the very brave. They HAVE seen it at some stage, and they wish they had not, and never want to see it again… I understand that. Tho I drop my Mother in Law a text on occasion wen things get way out of hand…shes a sweet woman, but she is completely powerless…COMPLETELY. Its not her battle, its nobodys battle, JUST HIS, and anyone who gets close.
IT IS ONLY those NEAREST and dearest who have to deal with the realities of this…kids CANNOT understand… they are programmed to trust. to love and to forgive adults and ESPECIALLY their parents. So it comes down to the spouse/partner.
I still provide NS for my H, the whole divorce process, the whole scenario with the kids, all of it provides him with that NS, I minimise it, and in the past couple of days, following his most recent extreme behaviour, I am calmed, because I know what he is seeking…he wants to send me in to ORBIT, but I am calm. I have no choice, and i am all done in on getting uptight with it, i am on a path to freedom, but that is a very long path. OMG the lessons I am learning!!!
His poor girlfriend will DEFINATELY be thinking that everything would be fine in HER world with him, IF NOT for all the shit he has to deal with with ME!!!His ‘bitter ex’ Its the eye of the storm, she IS in it, but for now she is naive to that…
‘once his divorce is final…once his kids are ok, once he does not have all this stress with the ex …everything will be fine, and we will be so happy’
DREAM ON BABY! I dont know her, i dont want to, i might like her, am sure i would, she is a victim, she is screwed, and my heart could bleed for her, but if not her, it be someone else, thats the saddest part, it NEVER EVER will end.
THERE IS NO HAPPY ENDING… NO HAPPY ENDING… FOR ANYONE. My kids are 14 & 16, and i realise now, that like siblings and parents, soon, they can be the same, and they will be. Does that make sense? they dont need to hate or despise nor understand their father, they will have their own life, and he WILL TREAT THEM WELL as adults VERY WELL, because they will be able to walk in or walk out, justlike siblings and parents. IT IS THE SIGNIFICANT OTHER who has to cope with this. I am glad mine hates me, i am not glad about what this means in terms of what i have to go throu, and how prolonged it HAS to be. There is no facility for negotiation, agreement or truth, there is no reliability, no accountability, and children bind us HORRENDOUSLY to these people, long after we have moved on with our own useless love for them.
IT IS HIDEOUS. beyond sick, beyond comprehension. I have never read a book on this subject, and quite honestly, i dont want to. Whats the bloody point?
I wont be in court in under a year, so am stuck with this for a minimum of 2, but realistically, I have legislated for 5. Every major event in my kids life is goint to be a fkn nightmare. For me at least, but for him, it will be NS, big time. Folks like you and me, we will never be clever enough to work out what they going to pull out of their BAG, not ever, shocks, surprises, twisted truths and realites you cannot predict. The new chick will be pulled into that, and used. Whippin up a storm!!
As i see it, learnin a bit of his medicine is the only way. i disengaged from my H emotionally this time last year, ut that did not make me safe, FAR FROM IT, we have kids and a complex financial scenario. KERCHING, NS for years to come!!
Soz babe, but ther aint NOTHIN nice about any of…fallin in love… marryin…or breeding with an N, do the 3, and by god, there is a price to pay!!
hope I’m making sense, have had tonights bottle of vino!!
love to abdy and hope good weekends are being had by all!!
xxxx
Sam,
My ex-husband who married very soon after our very destructive divorce, still blaimes me for destroying our family. He has shut me out, and will not have anything to do with me when it comes to anything to do with our sons; like in your book, I am dead; that happened immediately after he found his N Supply, and married her very quickly after (with no care how it would affect our sons). My question is, that while you relate to your own life and feelings, am I to presume that somewhere inside of him he feels bad for what he has done to us (my children and I), and that he knows his wrongs? Or is this person able to really truly lie to himself and truly feel that he was as wonderful as he portrays himself?
Question #2
My ex married a woman who has more money than himself. He is very competetive, even with his own siblings; money seems to be his driving force, for a long time in the marriage, I felt that he felt that I was a liability to him and that made him angry. I feel today that he is still in the “honeymoon” stage with his new wife, married 1 1/2 years, I was married to him for 23. One time during a heated discussion, he told me how great his new relationship is, and how she is truly the love of his life. It is hard to comprehend all of this, and how he can change lives and go on like I never existed. I truly felt so hated by him at times, that it was devastating. Will he ever get to the same point with wife #2 like he was with wife #1, or can he fake it better this time? And mind you, I have no idea if wife #2 is narcissistic as well.
Question number 1
Guilt? What guilt?
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4931
Projection and Projective Identification - Abuser in Denial
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5002
Question number 2 - this awaits his new partner as well:
Approach-Avoidance Repetition Complex and Fear of Intimacy
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5000
Sam
I have read your book and often still refer back to it, along with other books and articles. I again referred back to these sites that you sent. With all of this; reading, discussing, therapy, and living it, it is still so hard to comprehend.
I know what you say about how a N doesn’t know how to LOVE. What is it then? I mean are there feelings that he/she thinks is love or relates as love? For instance our sons. My ex-husband must feel something like love for them. He does indeed have the rages with them (like me), and he does things that a father would never do, like change the locks on his sons, or re-marry with no thought of how his sons feel, etc., but he does contact them, have them to dinner or take them out, and they go on vacation together. He gets furious when they don’t call him. Please tell me now that he has adopted his new wife’s children as his own (not legally), that he considers her kids the same as his own. It can’t be just turned on and off with his kids–can it? Where he, what did you say, compartmentalizes? I can tell you this that he will never go back to his old N supply (me),if he is to lose wife #2, I mean try to, because he knows I know who he is.
My next question, when drunk, can the real self come out? For years I knew my husband had an affair. He would never ever admit it. I know it as I know my own name that it happened, yet he refused to admit it. The week before he re-married, when I had a phone conversation with him, and I was arguing with him about issues over my sons, and brought up “the affair,” in a drunken stooper he said, “So what, now you know!” Like it was no big deal. It happened so many years ago and was a thorn always in our marriage, and he said it so nonchalantly, like it was no big deal. Was that because now he was with soon to be wife #2? Later, when I reiterated what he said, many months later, he denied ever saying that; what’s with that? So many questions.
And last, how do you feel about all of us here on the forum? Inside are you thinking of us as the weak? Would love to hear the answers to all my questions.
Makes total sense. And I know Sam will more than likely not answer, as he is who he is, and when it gets to close, they don’t. I just want more sense to it all, and who better than Sam himself. It doesn’t matter, it really doesn’t.
I think back at my heart-breaks in my life. They were deep. I went out with a boy in high school for four years; my first love, and then another young man for six years, both break-ups were hard on the heart, but now, looking back, they were “normal” heart-breaks, if that can make any sense. When I left my husband, I was absolutely devastated. I had no idea about NPD, nor if I was going to leave forever, but the feelings inside were new. They were different. My feelings tugged at me in my sleep, sometimes still do, but this time it’s my children. The interesting thing is, that when my ex-boyfriends and I split up, I was tremendously sad, and pined away for them. I played those games, to suddenly show up where they may be (by accident-right). In the case of my ex-husband, the pain was tremendous, but there was no jealousy or yearning when I heard of his new girlfriend, whom he married in a hot minute. While I loved him, I had to learn that I loved a false self. It is not him I am pining away for because I don’t know if I ever met him. I have the most wonderful man in my life today–so why am I here? Why have I not gotten over all of this? “MOm, it’s been six years, what is your problem?” Maybe it’s the “ideal” I had of what a family was suppose to be. Or it’s the “crumbs” that my husband through out at me that I think of, or the promise that I made to myself about not letting my children go through what I did as a kid; whatever it is, it’s like a cancer–it eats away at you, and I am in a better place, believe me.
My moments are further apart, but when you have children with these people, like you said, (I believe nic), it never really goes away. It’s not like a “normal” divorce, if divorce can be considered “normal.”
By the way, my ex-husband sued my attorney, and brought the case to the bar association. In the meantime, my attorney, who’s husband was dying from cancer, didn’t need the grief. My lawyer’s firm had to pay $30,000 dollars out of pocket. She ended up winning the case, but now I hear that my ex-husband’s attorney has appealed the case. It’s really sick!
Anyway, I have to get up early and drive three hours to my dear friend’s father’s funeral. I am going to close here.
Talk to you soon,
Mariel Lee
Mariel Lee,
It sounds like you have been through hell. I know the feeling of never really recovering. From my first N boyfriend, and my father and my brother. I think what you felt is your heart strings being pulled and that is why it felt so painful, and at the same time so great. Heart strings being pulled cause adrenaline to surge in your body. So if and when you think about your ex, your adrenaline gland starts pumping out that feeling. Sometimes I believe that feeling can be misconstrued as happiness. It is a natural high. But unfortunately adrenaline is used to fight of the enemy as well.
Does that make sense? And if you don’t have that feeling with other men or people, you think it is dull. I used to lay about at night thinking of my ex too. And my heart would start pounding, adrenaline would fill my body. I almost would bring on the feeling… Switch to yoga…Much more rewarding…
I LIKE THIS I JUST FOUND IT ON ANOTHER SITE:
Seven Stages of Personal Healing:
Stage One: Willingness
Unrelenting or severe emotional pain is what usually causes us to become willing to find a way to live thats better for us than our self- protections, willpower and anesthesias ever bought us
Stage Two: Foundation
In order to begin outgrowing our self-protections, we stabilize our lives and restructure our daily activities so we can do the work we need to do. We abstain from our principal anesthesias, move our basic physical health back on track, develop a support system that facilitates our choice to
heal, and adopt daily introspection habits.
Stage Three:Feelings
We develop the basic psychological tools and spiritual resources we need to face, and free ourselves from, our unhealed wounds.We learn to recognize and deal with our inner critic. We learn how to recognize, work with and resolve our entire spectrum of feelings. We develop a relationship with the part of us that guards the feelings we hate and fear the most
Stage Four: Healing The Abyss
Now properly equipped, we face and heal the core emotional wounds our self-protections and anesthesias helped us avoid. We go into our inner forbidden territory our internal abyss and put to rest the issues that have haunted us for so long, prevented us from being who we are, and
blocked us from living the life we’ve wanted to live
Stage Five: Rebirth
Freed from the shackles of a good chunk of these core wounds, we develop a truer and fuller sense of self and spirituality, based on who we really are, rather than on who our self-protections required us to be. We bask in the light of new-found self-acceptance and personal power, and
restructure our lives in ways that reflect who we are. We realize that our remaining unfinished business will continue to surface for a long time to come, but now were confident that we can not only survive the pain, but benefit from facing these issues
Stage Six: Clear-Hearted Relationships
Having become more fully ourselves, we are now able to build and sustain relationships with others, and with our spiritual resources, in a far deeper and more durable way than ever before.
We feel self supporting and lovable for who we are at the very core. Because of this, we can achieve depths of intimacy that we’ve always wanted or never knew we wanted. We know our relationships will expose every last wound we still carry. But, we are now confident in our ability to heal these issues, and know that further healing will lead to even deeper relationships
Stage Seven: Clear-Hearted Service
Our motivation to give to others now springs from our authenticity, inner fullness and capacity to love rather than from our unhealed wounds, neediness and self-protections. We are now able to leave the world a much better place than we found it. We can fulfill our calling in life with inner
grace and compassion, without feeling attached to the outcome. This leaves us free to contribute to the betterment of others even when feathers are ruffled in the process
Adapted from SENSIBLE SELF-HELP: THE FIRST ROAD MAP FOR THE HEALING JOURNEY The Book The Tape, by Drs. David & Rebecca Grudermeyer, and Lerissa Patrick (Colliers Mental Health Book of the Year
“The person with the least willingness controls the amount of closeness possible in a relationship.” - - Dr. Rebecca Grudermeyer
Best wishes
Laura
Hey Bup, do you have the url to the website where you found this article? I'd like to read it, too!
Thanks,
CZBZ
Hi,
I receive dozens of letters daily and answer all of them personally. This is why I have to limit the number of questions I respond to. My apologies.
But you can now have a phone or email consultation with me (for a fee). Write to me if you are interested in the details.
Take care.
Sam