This was no normal relationship

Narcissistic personality disorder
#21

SMG, will you be dating and intimate with (an)other men while youre seeing this guy?

I remember feeling like you described in your last post, and engaging myself with a couple other guys, just the flirting stage, trying to make a date to get together, while I was still seeing my exN and deciding he had HIS life (and prorblems), MY life was separate and how the two overlap from time to time would be OK. Except exN didnt like that, he got a little jealous and possessive (although I suspect it was more than the little he showed me) and the other guys knew exN was still around so they didnt step up to the plate. The result was, I ended up only being with N, and unwittingly, unknowingly, emotionally placed all my eggs in his basket over time again…and back on the rollercoaster we went once he was sure again he had me.

I’ve been thinking today about Mr POW, and about Mr GoodGuyForRightNow thats presently in my life, and about how I’m a good girl, I’m not a player and I really should tell GoodGuy that there wont ever be a commitment or monogamy on my side and perhaps there shouldnt be on his side either. Except I know how he feels about me, he’ll be hurt, and he’ll likely leave. I’m not upset about him leaving, as much as I like him, theres no interdependence or attachment on my end, but he isnt the first guy who wanted more from me that I couldnt give in the last year, and this is one guy whose feelings I really dont want to hurt. He’s been so good to me.

But after that “talk” takes place, if/when Mr POW becomes figural in my little slice of the universe, I’m not sure I’m ready for another whirlwind romance, of placing all my eggs with one basket. I’m thinking I’d like to, if only for my own safety and sanity, keep all my options open (read - having an exit strategy, or just plain ole room to breathe) in a non-committed relationship.

I’m thinking, I’m likely more burned than I think I was previously, my exN has pretzeled me up in a way that I wont trust another guy, to actually be there…REALLY, TRULY be there for me when I jump into the river with both feet. ExN promised he would be, he begged me to jump, and to trust him, swore he would never hurt me, that he’d protect me from harm…and look, he’s the very guy who’s responsible for the worst 5 years of my entire life.

I love Love. I really do. I also love Companionship, and Family and Home…and being part of a Team. I could be alone for the rest of my life, I’m not suffering at all right now being alone, but I really do think I’m wired for being part of a unit. The only thing is, I’m starting to wonder if exN ruined me for ever trusting again in a healthy enough way that I can be a healthy part of a unit ever again.

#22

Bup,

It sounds like you have a lot to be angry about. I think if my brother sold one of my mother’s prized possessions that was promised to me, I’d be fit to be tied. I’d likely let loose the hounds. I can easily imagine how the death of a loved one can turn family members into insensitive selfish jerks, and leave such hurt feelings behind that it can tear a family apart. And to think thats the last thing our mothers would want. I dont know what solution there is to that problem.

I know when Gaye was posting so much about victim mentality, I was thinking, “I dont like feeling like a victim, I dont like thinking of myself as a victim, except exN really did do those things TO me, I really did get injured BY HIM. What other choice do I have right now in my anger?” I suppose we could become perpetrators ourselves, call a lawyer, start making their lives miserable if only to maintain equilibrium, or get a sense of justice or retribution. That idea always seems so delicious to me personally. Except, I dont know about you, but my exN would ruin my life…literally. He’s Mr Tenfold, no matter what injury or discomfort I cause him, he’ll retaliate ten times worse, thats who he has always been, and if it were just me I had to worry about I just might be wreckless enough to step up to the plate and go toe-to-toe with him yet again. I’m a force to be reckoned with if only because I dont back down from a fight with a bully. But I have a beautiful boy, and I have to be more responsible about my life, and the battles I pick if only so I can protect my quality of life in order to give my son every chance I possibly can.

I dont know if you ever think about those things. I do…a lot.

Sometimes just planning and strategizing is enough to take the edge off the hatred I feel. I also documented everything I know and gave it to a lawyer friend to keep safe should anything bad and unexplainable start happening to my life. I’ve decided I wont cause exN trouble, but I wont be stupid enough to blindly trust he may not cause me some.

How did I get here?

How did the love of my life become this convoluted, battle-strategizing tangled knot? Its like a messy divorce, except I never had the benefit of the European honeymoon or the diamond ring? And I’m MIss AMicableDivorce girl, my exH and I were doing amicable and shared custody in these parts when people were still turning up their nose at such an agreement,even my mothers-in-law thought I was nuts for being so accommodating and generous. How the hell did I end up hating a man I swore I loved? How did I come to prepare for the possibility I might “have an accident”?

How did you end up in a family where your own siblings dont even care about the wishes of their own mother?

Sometimes, humanity just sucks, doesnt it?

Makes me want to run away into the greenshield somewhere and build a log cabin and start my own commune.

#23

CZ,

I gotcha.

I love the metaphors we’re bandying about lately…theyre dessert for a visual thinker :slight_smile:

#24

SMG, will you be dating and intimate with (an)other men while youre seeing this guy? I remember feeling like you described in your last post, and engaging myself with a couple other guys, just the flirting stage, trying to make a date to get together, while I was still seeing my exN and deciding he had HIS life (and prorblems), MY life was separate and how the two overlap from time to time would be OK. Except exN didnt like that, he got a little jealous and possessive (although I suspect it was more than the little he showed me) and the other guys knew exN was still around so they didnt step up to the plate. The result was, I ended up only being with N, and unwittingly, unknowingly, emotionally placed all my eggs in his basket over time again...and back on the rollercoaster we went once he was sure again he had me. pheonix

I'm not planning to 'actively' do that, date others, right now.  It has crossed my mind, of course. I even told my bf in one of our many discussions that "i give up, let's do this YOUR way. you don't know what I'm doing, I don't know what you're doing. If you stumble across evidence that suggests I was not where I said I was, or a note, or an email that suggests my involvement or interest in another person, that's none of your business, you will just have to trust I am not 'sleeping' with them and that they do not poise any serious threat to your relationship w/ me. I don't expect to be grilled about is or have it come up as an issue between us; and I will likewise not grill you or have this come up for me as an issue. Let's do this YOUR way."  His response:  'Well, THAT doesn't sound very healthy!"  Ya think?  I've suggested a million times we simply need to see other people; he argues against it always. Because he is not SECURE enough to risk loosing me, indeed, he is so insecure, that he wants to make sure I am bonded to him, while he explores other possibilites and tries to relieve himself of HIS insecurities and hedge his bets behind my back.  He is like the Charlie Brown charactar that has a a little dust storm of dirt following him around wherever he goes, only it's his own toxic psychological dirt that is circulating around him at all times.  I don't want to be a part of that dust storm. 

I am not  a person who would be trying to cultivating relationships w/ someone behind the back of a loved one who THINKS I'm committed to him.  He does this. But I don't.  I am in a master's program. I have a daughter. I have many good friends and a good family. If he wants to behave that way, that is his disease, not mine.  I'm living my life. If someone were to walk into my life for whom I felt compelled to get to know intimately, I would be honest w/ my bf about that, as I would anyone, and that would lead to the demise of the relationship with him. If I end up telling him I really want to start dating others, it will lead to the demise of relationship.  At least I know of two things right off the top of my head, that would cause him to dump me and go away.  If I find he is involved w/ another woman, or actively trying to be involved w/ another woman behind my back, it will lead to the demise of our relationship because I will break up w/ him.

Meanwhile, I'm going to live my life, stay away from the dust storm that is his thinking and not let my mind try to think in the scrambled way his mind thinks..what if this, what if that..., and just continue with my life the way I always have. He may be cultivating a relationship w/ a woman right no and I just don't know it yet. Oh well. If that is what he has to do, if he's determined to sabatoge what we have, then so be it. I'll know sooner than later.  I will be fine. 

 

#25

Good luck SMG,

I dont know how easy that will be to pull off, maybe incredibly easy if youre 100% resigned. It sounds as though you are. I dont know that I myself could do that but you could be teaching this old dog a new trick :slight_smile:

I hope you’ll let us know how it continues to go, and what that specialist at the institute has to tell you about personality disordered folk.

#26

I dont know how easy that will be to pull off, maybe incredibly easy if youre 100% resigned. It sounds as though you are. I dont know that I myself could do that but you could be teaching this old dog a new trick :) -

Well, now, nothing about this relationship has been easy. I am 100% resigned that he will lie to me again. I suppose the context will determine the outcome. I love him, still.  But I'm not kidding myself about his weaknesses or his affliction.  There are no guarantees in life, ever. I could die in a car accident today and this would all be moot. I can only try to keep my eyes on my own paper and be true to myself.

peace, smg 

#27

"My donut hole has grown back. I know that I am the sane one. I have to check my jelly in the middle periodically and read the diagnoses of NPD to reassure my jelly that it is going to stay in my donut. But it is secured today. The jelly might spill out again, but my shell has been so severely burned, I need the jelly to protect my third degree burns.........I will try to preserve my jelly for as long as I humanly can. I take that vow today." ~Bup 

Love it! Thank you!!! Sometimes metaphor is the only way to express our feelings and thoughts. A metaphor resonates between people when words fall short of 'connection'.

Dear Phoenix,

In response to your question about the narcissistic relationship, I have concluded that the greatest struggle we have is with our unquestioned assumptions about life. A personal weltanschauug about how the world works.

Most often, our assumptions are so fundamental to our perceptions of reality, that they remain unquestioned. In most relationships sharing the same 'benign illusions', we are not required to shatter our own beliefs about the benevolence of the world, the meaning of life, or even our basic self-worth as individuals. This is where we suffer so deeply in trying to reconstruct a shattered reality.

For me at least, losing a spouse was minor compared to losing my security in the world. I was forced to examine philosophical issues and question everything I had accepted as being 'true' about life, about justice, and about my self as a valuable and lovable human being.

This is no small task. It may require years of hard work restoring a sense of meaning, purpose and faith.

I have appreciated everyone's insights and particularly, your willingness to contribute to this thread. It's NOT easy to talk about our experience in a way that other people can understand.

Hugs,

CZBZ

#28

I can only try to keep my eyes on my own paper and be true to myself.

 

 

Yeah thats the thing about clear boundaries right?  I think thats sound thinking. I imagine my own life, my own mind, and my own needs and I realize, especially in a romantic relationship, theres bleeding along the boundaries.  I dont know how that could not happen for me, because whats beautiful about love making, and loving in general, is the confluence between partners, and thats when boundaries disappear.  The only way I can imagine them not, is if I'm really not that into the guy....or I've reached Buddhist enlightenment which as much as I'd like it, I dont think I'm getting to the "loving non-attachment" bit in this lifetime.

I have needs that are unenlightened...and those needs are...hmmm...raw and over-pronounced post-N.

 

Trust being one.

Honour being another.

And I need to see consistent evidence of that palying out before my eyes and ears or I think all my defenses are going to rear up between him and me.

 

I like reading your thoughts here though, and how theyre unfolding, and how they keep an alternative to my own reality, alive and viable for you.  I like seeing and thinking about the difference between us.  Especially now when I'm not feeling my own injuries being triggered into anger and resentment.  I like your clarity...and faith.

#29

I do have to be careful from now on about the victim mentality. I
DON’T EVER WANT TO BE A VICTIM of
narcissistic abuse again. Ever again. And I don’t think I will be.
Once you REALIZE what you are protecting
yourself against, you won’t be hurt. But I have to avoid my family
in order to do so, or only see them on
MY TURF and MY TERMS…

By the way, the eagle antique was not one of my mother’s prize
possessions. It does belong to my father, so he had every right to
give it to who he wanted to give it to. However, as a rule, we are
not allowed to have anything from that summer house. No one has ever
taken anything from it since 1961. So it was an off the cuff and
peculiar choice of how to help my brother out financially, because
it was ingrained in ALL OF us NEVER TO DO THIS. AND HE DID IT AND
WAS GLORIFIED in doing so. AND I WAS REPRIMANDED for NOT ALLOWING
HIM to get away with it. And if HE REALLY NEEDED THE MONEY for
legitimate reasons, I guess I would have let it go. However, it
was all done in secret from just me. If my father had said, "Hey
your brother is getting the eagle THIS TIME, but there will be a next
for you, I wouldn’t be in this position of being the outsider.

I know I am beating a dead horse with this situation. But it was a
perfect example of how NPD can play
a HUGE role in destroying families.

On Dec 3, 2007, at 2:04 PM, thephoenix101 wrote:

#30

Bup,

I’m sorry I misunderstood, thanks for setting me straight.

Yeah that whole “keeping everything a secret from so-and-so” is a favoured tactic of bullies…ostracization, marginalization, isolation.

It sounds like youre standing up for yourself a lot. Are you finding that any of your family members are starting to see you differently? gaining respect? or just plain ole watching their step around you?

#31

Bup,

I’m sorry I misunderstood, thanks for setting me straight.

Yeah that whole “keeping everything a secret from so-and-so” is a
favoured tactic of bullies…ostracization, marginalization,
isolation.

It sounds like youre standing up for yourself a lot. Are you
finding that any of your family members are starting to see you
differently? gaining respect? or just plain ole watching their
step around you?

I think WHY this situation affected me as it did was that the summer
house we had represented FAMILY and
FAMILY TRADITIONS. There are SO MANY EAGLES EVERYWHERE TOO. SO I
WILL NEVER FORGET HOW I FELT when I found out. And it was the straw
that broke the camel’s back. And I can’t really go back to Maine
and feel “GOOD” about my family trust and loyalty. That is GONE. MY
TRUST OF FAMILY IS GONE. It is a horrible feeling. Does that make
sense? My family LIED to me and kept something VERY IMPORTANT from
only me so that my brother would get EVERY PENNY. And I did nothing
WRONG. My brother did! He got payment FOR his narcissism. And I
AM the one who is ALIENATED again. He gets the applause and the
attention. The flashbulbs are flashing and I in turn, have no family.

If my dad gave him his car or something along those lines, I don’t
think that I would flinch. The EAGLE represented the basis of my
childhood memories (as well as my brother’s-- and he KNOWS THAT IT
DID, or else he wouldn’t have taken it). IT WAS A MASCOT and an
EMBLEM of our family history. My other brother is protecting him
because he was such a horrible alcoholic so it is his turn to protect
the underdog.

And if my father had NOT TOLD ME that my bro’s child was the
cutest grandchild, TO RUB SALT IN MY WOUNDS, maybe I could forgive.
And yes, people may think that I appear jealous, but if you met me
and all the rest, you GET WHAT THE DEAL IS IMMEDIATELY.

I am not out to ruin my family by sticking up for myself. I have
tried for YEARS to love them and support their needs and wishes and
have been in numerous pretzel positions. Contorted knots that don’t
even exist, and were never appreciated and even ignored. AND THEY
KNOW IT… So respect, I don’t know if they respect me. Respect
would mean EMPATHY. LOVE would mean CARING. A REAL APOLOGY would
MEAN THAT INDEED THEY WERE WRONG. And NARCISSISTS would rather DIE
than be WRONG… So it remains a stale mate. Which is fine with
me. I am at peace, which is what I need…

PS: Ironically, I gave my N brother’s baby our scottish family
tartan blanket from Edinborough for Christmas last year. That is how
traditional and loyal I am. He gave my children yo-yos, right
AFTER the $51,000 check cleared…

On Dec 3, 2007, at 4:05 PM, thephoenix101 wrote:

#32

Hello and thanks for your comments…I desparately
need some advice from you, looks like you have been
thru a very similar situation!!! I will email you this
week-end, I don’t have much time during the week. I
look forward to exchanging emails, did you read my
story on Careplace? Thanks again and talk to you soon!!

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#33

Misha, I am curious where you read it is proven that alcoholics have an underlying personality disorder. Maybe you can substantiate that but I suspect you have confused what you read.

Many alcoholics can act narcissistic and express many of the same traits, but most alcoholics are not NPD. Most NPD’s abuse alcohol. Not the equivalent.

Alcohol is very toxic to the brain and body and can cause personality problems, but in such cases, the diagnosis is usually substance abuse, not PD. For example, alcohol will inhibit the uptake of certain nutrients, B-12, folate acid, and niacin particularly that are very important to brain function. Thus heavy drinkers frequently become deficient in these. Such dietary deficiencies can cause behaviors typical of PDs, but the problem is not true PD, rather nutritional deficiencies due to alcohol abuse. As the liver produces enzymes important in the uptake process of nutrients, again you get similar mental and behavorial affects in cirrhosis of the liver but this is considered a dementia. Other health issues that alcohol can cause that will affect behaviors include pancreatitis, epilepsy, polyneuropathy, and alcoholic dementia. In epilepsy caused by alcohol, lesions have permanently damaged the brain causing dysfunction. If right frontal lobes – you can have NPD with epilepsy as the underlying problem. And that depends on the locations in the brain that are affected. Alcoholic dementia will manifest narcissistic personality problems but other problems go with it as well such as in speech, walking, memory. The diagnosis is usually called Korsakoff’s psychosis, some class it as true amnesia, not dementia. Alcohol use can cause or contribute to hypoglycemia, and ultimately diabetes – this can be a source of temper rages and behavioral issues, but not necessarily. The underlying diagnosis may be one of these.

There are mental illnesses wherein the person will abuse alcohol or drugs, but again, it is not seen as the underlying problem, rather self medication of that problem. These often include personality problems, other dementias, schizophrenia even.

I hope I have explained this clearly. This is the problem with people going on the web and trying to diagnoses themselves or someone close to them with partial, filmsy, and often misinformation. It was a recent issue on this board.

Closet drinkers are people who hide their consumption so no one sees them drinking. For example, the bottle is hidden in the closet and they sneak when no one is looking and take hits on it – thus the term. But it does not matter the location, it is rather if the drinking is out front of others, or hidden from others. A closet drinker could frequent the bars and routinely order glasses of water and then spike them with alcohol when no one was looking, so everyone around him believes he is not drinking alcohol at all.

I hope you participate in Alanon and have read the big book. In it, it refers to those who are constitutionally incapable of being honest – these are different than most alcoholics, and rare actually. I think these are usually those with underlying personality disorders or other mental problems that are causing their drinking.