That's EASY...(hopefully) the guy I am seeing tomorrow night *kissing fingers* MOLTO BENE *sighs* NOT YOUR PROBLEM.
It's not about "satisfying" anyone, it's about reality, and learning how to discern it.
Absolutely, all of us can (and should) KNOW that:
using me, deceiving me, rejecting me, using me, hurting me, humiliating me, screwing my head into a pretzel all the while telling me I was the love of his life,
...is something that we do not want, and refuse to accept...
But like it or not, we can only rarely, if ever, actually know what goes on inside anybody else's head, and that being so, kidding ourselves we do (with or without any help from Sam Vaknin) is only setting ourselves up for more of the same kind of problem.
As long as you reject the way you were treated, your ex probably won't get back in again...but, unless you learn to value reality over what you want to hear, you are a plum ripe for the next b*st*rd to pick at his leisure.
To protect yourself in future, you need to learn to demand only reality, whether you want to hear it or not, or nothing.
That IS what Sam has been hustling, all these years, an illusion of knowing what goes on inside the head of someone who has abused you. An illusion that obstructs your view of reality, and prevents you learning how to avoid and reject further abuse, until you learn how to see through it and reject it.
People buy into that illusion because it gives them a sense of power and control, in a situation where they have felt helpless for too long...but that is an illusion too...that prevents them from ever taking any kind of real healthy control of their own lives.
what other way, besides believing now ONLY what a man does, and not what he says…is there to know what reality is inside someones head?
I dont claim to be clairvoyant but I am pretty sure I know how my son thinks, and that what I see is what I get.
I have this sense about other people too, which ones are sincere, which ones are guarded, which ones are telling me what they think I want to hear.
I deal with N’s and other disordered and injured kids all day long in work.
I’ve sat in process groups for years listening to people spill their guts. I believed them too for the most part, although my ex was in that group and everyone says afterwards they all knew he was “hiding” and never “did his work”.
I’m going to tell you now where you and I are in this dicussion is tiring and upsetting to me.
What I believe is, in love, no one is spared from pain in one form or another. If you dont make yourself vulnerable at some point, if you dont trust, theres no love.
And that kind of trust and vulnerability comes not JUST from watching what someone does, its also about letting go.
And I really DO NOT want to be so damaged by my ex that I’ll have trouble letting myself go.
If I get hurt again, oh well. I think the odds are more likely that some intrnal, less than conscious mechanism has now formed to recognize whats so ex-like about other guys.
I’m very emotional right now.
I’ve been hurt, I’m not over that yet. I’m long over him, but not what he did to me.
Maybe we can pick up where we left off once I’m a little further down the road?
Right now, I just need to be left to feel my own ground, my own gut, my own hurt, my own hope for myself so I hope you’ll respect where I am right now, even if it is different from where you are.
Every word you say confirms that you are living by telling yourself whatever you want to hear, and looking for confirmation of that, wherever you can get it.
That isn’t “trust”, it is an illusion of control.
An illusion of control that will keep getting you hurt, over and over again until you let it go.
For YEARS I OVERVALUED my N’s DAD AND BRO and undervalued myself in
order to put them where they needed to be. HIGH UP ON A PEDESTAL.
My mother did the same, and I think she is dead because of it…MY
OTHER BROTHER DID THE SAME AND BECAME A RAGING ALCOHOLIC AND BLEW UP
A CAR AND ALMOST DIED.
This is not easy to live with, but I almost died myself in reaction
to the abuse. I HAVE TO ONLY VALUE MYSELF. THEY THINK I AM ALL
FUCKED UP NOW AND OFF TO THE MENTAL WARD. BUT IN “REALITY” WHICH THEY
DON’T LIKE, ALL I AM DOING IS BEING WHO I NEED TO BE TO SURVIVE.
HOW ABOUT THAT FOR ABUSE?
And Pheonix, I AM NOT A CHAUVINIST, I AM A 39 YEAR OLD WOMAN, IN
DESPERATE SEARCH FOR REAL ANSWERS TO THIS STRANGE TWISTED ABUSE. I
THOUGHT PERHAPS IT COULD BE LINKED TO THE MOTHER FOR ENABLING THEIR
SON’S TO BE ASS HOLES ( AND DAUGHTERS) FOR WAY TOO LONG THAT IT
BECOMES A DISORDER. I AM TRYING TO GO DOWN EVERY AVENUE. I AM AS
DESPERATE AS EVERYONE ELSE TO FIND THE ANSWER AND THE CURE…
On Oct 24, 2007, at 8:19 AM, thephoenix101 wrote:
I’m in pain, I’m upset by this thread and your adamance in spite of me recognizing your fervor and concern. I am also someone who is adamant about this - this is my journey, my healing, my past, my intellect, my heart and soul. I really am very protective of my experience and process and inner truth.
I am not going to try and convince you of anything. I respect youve gotten to where you are through your own important process and experience.
Please respect mine. I’m feeling pushed. I dont want to be convinced of anything.
I just want sanity and calm and kindness in my life. I’ve had more than my lifetime’s share of pain.
Hi I am new here, I am confused, I read the book “The wizard Of Oz and other Narcissists” written by a therapists in pvivate practice, and it explains my life with my H. The way my H thinks, why he does the things he does. I have read Sam’s info on line and a lot of it describes my H, I don’t think my H is a monster or evil, but he does not have normal feelings or behavior.Without that information,to help me wake up to reality, I don’t think I would have been able to start working on myself. Are you saying there are not people like this? Are you saying none of that information is true. I am confused now. cindy
Now you know that YOU are the worthwhile one, it doesn’t matter what anyone else wants to think, does it?
I’d be inclined to agree with you. In my life experience, I learned, years ago that people become spoiled, selfish and callous for one of two reasons:
a) Because, since they were kids, they are so used to getting their own way that they EXPECT it
b) Because, since they were kids, they have been so disregarded that they only ever got anything they wanted by RAISING CAIN over it
Even today, my gut tells me that, for many people, it really isn’t much more complicated than that. The only really significant thing is how much harm those spoiled, selfish, callous people do to others.
Phoenix,
You seem so desperate to hide in your illusions, that you see, FEEL, reality as a threat…
…it isn’t…of course you have the right to your illusions, and even the right to hurt yourself. What you do not have is any right to try and corner me into compounding them with aquiescence.
I think there is a difference between malignant NPD and other types
of narcissism. KEEP ON READING. It
is fascinating and EXTREMELY EYE OPENING… There are many sources
on line other than here… WELCOME CINDY!! : > }
Eleanor Payson’s only accredited qualification is a Masters in Social Work in 1983. That does not tell us much about her one way or the other.
She may be fine, but I have to say that, without even pausing for breath, I know of at least two highly dysfunctional and outright abusive self appointed experts in online pseudopsychology who’s only qualification is a Masters in Social Work.
Going deeper into the “imago therapy” she practices since 1993. I am having an whole lot of trouble finding any details of where the two PHDs who created imago therapy actually studied and qualified…
AHA…Harville Hendrix, holds a PHD in Psychology and Theology/Religion from Chicago and works for the unaccredited Omega Institute for Holistic healing, his wife Helen Lakelly Hunt hold a PHD from Union Theological Seminary in New York City with a dissertation in “The Religious Roots of American Feminism,â€Â.
On the plus side they do not link or support Sam Vaknin (or similar, he ain’t the only doozy in the barrel).
They could have something worthwhile to say, or not, so let’s look at a quick, potted version:
Seems to be a personal re-interpretation of all human psychology, without a single valid, academic citation to support it.
Ok, now we have a better idea of who we are dealing with.
It’s not looking very good to me, but that does not conclusively invalidate Eleanor Payson or imago therapy.
Looking at the potted version (which seems to have been posted by a supporter as a form of advertising, so it is their side of the story) what do YOU think of the principles of imago therapy (Which are the basis of where Eleanor Payson is coming from)?
I hope you aren’t waiting for me to answer that question, because I can’t, I have no way to know what you think of the principle of imago therapy…not unless you tell me truthfully, yourself.
So how, in the WHOLE WORLD can you know whether Eleanor Payson, or Sam Vaknin, is really explaining how your ex thinks why he does the things he does.
There are billions of people on this planet, chances are there MUST be, at leas,t one or two somewhere who think and behave exactly as Sam Vaknin and Eleanor Payson suggest…what we cannot know is whether your ex is one of them.
But there is GOOD news…
You certainly CAN know whether YOU are able or prepared to tolerate his behavior towards you and your children, whatever you know about that is certain to be the truth, and it is all you need to know to decide to leave.
That being said, fooling your self that you know what goes on inside your ex (whether because Sam Vaknin tells you so, or even because of a educated guess) is probably what got you into that mess in the first place.
When we want to be told something, we all actually go looking until we find sources to support it.
Sam plays to that by ensuring that whatever you want to hear, he has said it somewhere. It’s unlikely that you will ever notice that he has ALSO said it’s opposite, and every shade in between, over time…
Whatever you want to hear, Sam has it covered, and he didn’t invent the technique, a lot of pop psychology plays you the exact same way.
There are MANY shade of Narcissism, all the way from self esteem (aka GOOD Narcissism), through vanity (aka fairly harmless, normal range Narcissism) all the way to NPD and Malignant Narcissism…which a lot of real academic experts suggest as two different, but related, conditions.
" He actually is leading people to follow their own narcissistic traits - me
me me. No humanity for others. Please help me here."
Sam:
Let me help you, dear.
I think what you are trying to say is that narcissism can be cured,
narcissists can heal and spouses should go on trying to accommodate them. To
do otherwise is inhuman.
Did I misunderstand you “Steve” … er, sorry … “Kim” … er, sorry again
… “Sue”?
Phoenix, you don’t know what you got yourself into.
Blitzen (Gaye Dalton of Ireland in one of her numerous aliases and
identities both online and offline) is a notorious stalker and as insane as
a March hare.
She is a stark raving psychopathic narcissist and treads a very thin line
between what is considered legal and what is beyond the pale. She is also
psychotic and delusional, in the strictly clinical senses of the two words.
a) The fact that you are a self promoted, self published financial consultant who has spent the past nine years trying to con the world into seeing him as, not only a genius, but also an expert in psychiatry and psychology
b) The fact that the ONLY qualification of any kind you can lay claim to is a PHD in the “Philosophy of Physics” from an unaccredited degree mill that even so, cannot find any trace of ever having offered, let alone “awarded” a PHD in that particular subject, or similar.
c) The fact that you use a few highly dysfunctional, and often abusive “devotees” to create sockpuppets to harass anyone who challenges you and create an illusion of “support” to facillitate the creation of an online cult aimed at exploiting extremnellyt vulnerable people
d) The fact that you spent years padding your mailing lists with fictional and non-consensual addies and manage to even exaggerate beyond THAT to create an illusion of support
e) The fact that you are not only self admittedly, but also have a proven track record as an habitual liar as well as a vicious and malicious bully who is totally devoid of scruples in pursuit of his agenda.
f) The fact that repeatedly SPAMMING the internet, over many years, with this http://samvak.tripod.com/narcissismwomen.html (which begins “No woman has ever wanted a child with me”) when, according to the London Times your wife (in at least her 30s now) would like to have a baby, and you will not even discuss it, is cruel, spiteful, unnecassary, and cheap beyond words.
f) The fact that you throw a tantrum and post my full private name and address (and a few obsolete, for obvious reasons, phone numbers) as publicly as possible, EVERY time you know I have a date
g) The fact that, in spite of “f)” no courier company can EVER find me, including the one currently travelling in ever decreasing circles with something I needed LAST WEEK.
