A Match Made in Hell

I just joined this group because I have been suspecting that my wife (who is now divorcing me), has NPD. But, I’m just not sure and I don’t know if her behavior has been normal or not. In any event, one or the other of us has some serious psychological issues. After having been married to her for a couple years, I began abusing alcohol on a regular basis and was afraid to come home, where I always felt like I was walking on egg shells or that the slightest, most innocent comment I might make would trigger Mt. Vesuvious.

I wrote and submitted the following story, which is intensely personal, embarrassing, and, probably not easily understood by those who read it. I apologize for the length, but, I just like to know, if the accounts I’m relaying are true, whether I’m on the right track in suspecting that she is narcissistic. And, if I’m right, what do I need to do, especially since we have such an adorable little boy between us!

Thanks!

  • Steven

A Match Made in Hell: An eHarmony Horror Story
By Steven B.

On May 17th, 2007, 4 days after Mother’s Day, my wife abandoned me and took away from the only thing that really matters to me, our 10-month-old son, Austin. She had secretly arranged with a youth pastor from our church to have a moving truck, along with several kids from that youth group, move nearly all of our possessions out of our house - - - She waited until I had left for work. At 6:00pm, she left me a voice message indicating that she had moved out, but that “she still loved me.”

I was utterly devastated. I came back to a shell of a home. The extent of items taken out of our house was so extensive, to the point of cruelty. She took the best of everything that was in the house and only left items that were too difficult to move. Austin’s room was stripped totally bare; (even the wooden letters that spelled out his name which I painted and nailed to his wall were taken.) This “shock and awe” treatment was typical of Sara – but, it was also totally unnecessary. If she had only told me that she really did need some time apart, I would have done what I could to accommodate. We are now embroiled in a vicious divorce and custody battle. The custody evaluators were totally won over by Sara; I owe my attorneys over $20,000 and, now, I might lose my house because I can’t afford to pay both my child support obligations (about $1100/month for a 17-month-old toddler) AND the mortgage. (She moved into one of our rental homes that we were trying to sell, thus, eliminating a source of income. Also, she continues to work only on a part-time basis when she could easily go back to work full-time -she’s sales representative for a major pharmaceutical company).

Although Sara would start this saga much later, doing so results in a huge loss of context. Yes, it’s true I became a drunk. Yes, it’s true I would go out occasionally to night clubs, come home drunk, and sometimes even lie to her. Yes, it’s true I did a few things I was later very ashamed of (mostly done while under the influence, however.) Yes, it’s true, even up until she abandoned me and took my son away from me, I frequently treated her very poorly and contemptuously. For these reasons, I do deserve punishment.

For most of my life, I have struggled with an inferiority complex resulting in feelings of worthlessness and incompetence. Additionally, I have also had significant gender identity issues, meaning, I never really felt adequately qualified to distinguish myself as a “man” since I was not allowed (nor really desired) to participate in sports growing up, (I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness. Children in this religion are frowned upon and discouraged from being active in extra-curricular activities such as sports.) I was also much shorter than the rest of my male peers. So, having never really reached a solid level of emotional maturity, stability, and security I entered adulthood with a lot of conflicting emotions and did not have a “typical” high school and college experience. I had a huge inferiority complex, was extremely insecure, and was an absolute nerd. I never had a girlfriend; never “partied” or tried drugs of any kind;

As I watched all my friends date and get married, I really longed for that myself. I really, really, really wanted to just be normal! I had held off seriously dating anyone most of my life until I was in my mid-30’s, having earned two bachelors degrees and a master’s degree, as well as having established myself as a highly-paid IT professional in the healthcare industry. Also, I had attained some fairly significant positions of authority in the different churches I have belonged to over the years. By the time I reached 33, I felt it was really time to do something about my desire to get married and start a family.

Obviously, with the internal conflicts I was struggling with, I knew I had a very large uphill battle in front of me and so decided to get some psychological help from a local Christian therapist. (I had actually started seeing him in 2001; at least a year before ever meeting Sara.)

At first, I really liked and appreciated his approach, which was basically, “just do it.” In other words, if you know the right thing to do, despite whatever feelings or hesitancies may exist, just do it. So, instead of helping me talk through much of the pain of feeling rejected as a man that I’d grown up with, Hal always insisted that I just focus on my behavior and allow the feelings to follow.

So, even though I never felt ready to do something I should do, Hal would encourage me to do it anyway. This included dating. Trusting his word, I decided to sign up for what appeared to be a “Christian” dating service that focused on matching people together themselves, instead of allowing them to just search for their potential mates on their own. Since the premise of this service was to hook people up for the purpose of establishing a “romantic” relationship, I knew I wouldn’t have to deal with the awkwardness of having to express interest toward a particular woman. (Something I was never able to do. I should also mention, that I think it’s a mistake to say that people who are more inclined physically and emotionally toward the same sex than the opposite, can never have or develop hetero-sexual inclinations and attractions. In fact, there had been a few women prior to Sara that I would say were mildly attractive to me. )

In any event, after four months of using this online service, I was finally matched up with Sara Schwarz. This was the beginning of September 2002. We exchanged emails for a while and eventually met on September 29, 2002 at Caribou Coffee in Apple Valley. We sat and talked for hours. I was nervous and eager to impress. However, I felt I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. She was a beautiful, successful young blond, with a very good job, an outgoing personality, and even owned her own house, and while I was just as successful and ambitious as her, I knew I was just a nerdy, insecure IT guy — on top of that, I had a really dirty little secret I knew would have to get enough courage up and tell her; it would probably even be a deal-breaker if I ever got around to telling her. Nevertheless, she accepted a few more date offers that I made and it seemed as though we had the beginning of a real dating relationship — something that was totally foreign to me since I’d had absolutely no experience with.

For the next two months, I continued to ask her out and take her to different and fun places. I read books on how to understand and date women and I continuously called an old roommate and best friend of mine, who was always very savvy with women to get advice from. Additionally, Hal, my Christian counselor was ecstatic, and my family seemed finally relieved.

But, while I fell in love with Sara externally, I don’t know that I ever quite felt an internal, heart-to-heart connection. And I think the same was true for her as well. There were very many qualities about Sara that I loved, and I think there were many things about me that she loved. Yet, I don’t think that’s enough to base an intimate relationship on. They say you should “marry your best friend,” which is exactly what I was hoping and expecting for. But, Sara was never my best friend and I know I was never hers. We had each always had other people to whom we felt closer.

Additionally, because of my above-mentioned issues, although I knew she was objectively very attractive, I was honestly not personally attracted to her physically (or any woman, for that matter). (My admission of this fact is extremely embarrassing and although is not something I chose, is still very troubling and that I’m very shameful of.) The thought of having any type of physical relationship with Sara was always extremely awkward and uncomfortable for me to handle. I knew that eventually that would be coming and I was taking things extremely slowly. I assumed that if Sara was someone who truly cared for me, such issues wouldn’t just be my issues that I had to get fixed on my own, but that she would be able to be sympathetic, caring, patient and able to make me feel safe enough to talk about “my stuff.” I thought it was just in the genetic make-up of all women to have a big heart and to be able to provide a “comfort zone,” isolated from the rest of the “big, bad cruel world” that I could find solace in every day. So, in answer to the question that I frequently get asked, “Why did you start this relationship when there were all these problems going into it?”, I would say, I got some really bad advice from those around me: (e.g. my therapist, my family, my friends, etc.)

On or about December 4, 2002, I took Sara out to Macaroni Grill in Burnsville for dinner. (NOTE! By this time, after having had several dates with Sara, I did not have any sort of a drinking problem whatsoever. Neither Sara, nor any of my friends, nor members of the church small group that I was leading saw any evidence of such a thing! Several people with whom I’ve since lost contact with, would be totally shocked to discover that I got in the kind of trouble I did last year.) At dinner, I read Sara a note that I had written to her. I had basically decided that it was time to take this budding relationship to the next level and to let her know that I wanted to enter into an official dating relationship with her. I used a quote from the movie As Good as it Gets that was said by Jack Nicholson’s character to Helen Hunt’s character. The former, plagued by his own imperfections as a misfit in a relatively normal world, conceded to her and said, “You make me want to be a better man.” While I knew that wasn’t very original, it was exactly how I felt toward Sara at that time and I was very worried about losing her. She seemed to have everything all together and going for her, and I was constantly complaining that I didn’t feel good enough for her. (I’m sure I was not giving myself enough credit, considering the numerous achievements I had under my own belt.)

(NOTE: I suppose looking back, I could still the same thing, she makes me want to be a better man. But whereas back then, it was for her sake, now it’s in spite of her.)

She hardly said anything, and I thought it extremely curious. We ended up going out to the car and the very first snow of the season began covering my windshield. We talked some more, and although she accepted my offer, she revealed something to me that, up until that point, I was totally unaware of. She told me that she’d have to break things off with some other guy (Matt) that she was also seeing! Somewhat confused, it took me a while to figure out what she was saying. All this time, I had assumed, and was led to believe, that neither of us was “playing the field” and that we were each exploring THIS potential relationship together. [See journal entry for November 18, 2002]

We continued to see each other and became more and more serious. However, because of my lack of physical attraction to her, I was terrified of having to have a physical relationship with her. I remember wanting to want those types of feelings for her and was desperate. I was so jealous of other, “normal” guys whom I considered “walking hormones” and just found beautiful women irresistible. In many of journal entries during this time, I see myself trying to talk myself into it, to try and convince myself that I was straight and a “real man” and that Sara was a lady who deserved to be treated as such. — The psychological and emotional turmoil was extremely difficult. I prayed over and over and over to God to help me.

On Saturday, December 28, 2002, I decided that, in order for me to be fair to Sara, as incredibly difficult, painful, and shameful that it would be for me to do, I realized I needed to be honest with her regarding my problem. We went to dinner at Old Chicago in Apple Valley. I was utterly terrified and totally nervous. It took me forever to finally get the words out, “I’m not naturally attracted to women.” [Up until that point, I had simply explained to her that I was very inexperienced with dating. I had now just added another, nearly impossible obstacle.] — She didn’t seem to take the news too well, but didn’t exactly storm out either. (I guess, I was hoping for more of a compassionate response, however. She saw how difficult this was for me, and I explained that I saw my situation as a perversion of God’s intention and that I was in counseling to try and get through it.) We later went back to my house where her car was waiting, and sat and talked a bit more on the couch. Most ironically, she just outright told me that, “She really wanted to kiss me.” I couldn’t believe my ears. Hadn’t she just heard what I said? I didn’t understand how she could all of a sudden heap even more pressure on me by telling me that and then expecting me to follow through? I had no idea how to kiss a woman (or anyone, for that matter). But, that didn’t seem to matter. I agonized over half-an-hour over the idea of it, only because I was so scared of not doing it right and making a fool of myself. I finally gave it a try and I guess it wasn’t so bad. (I then felt like a fool for making such a big deal out of it!)

In any event, for the most part, our relationship progressed and I continued in private agony and despair over the pitiful fact that I struggled over something that most men have absolutely no trouble with. Sara, even according to my therapist who soon became our mutual counselor, had an unusually strong need for physical intimacy than most women. The total opposite was the case for me. Her incessant insistence on physical affection super-ceded any type of emotional intimacy; something I found myself repeatedly having to explain to her. Nevertheless, her demands for physical intimacy (even inappropriate) never subsided and she began criticizing me for not really caring for her. Over time, I felt utterly inadequate and unqualified to be her boyfriend or mate. As much as I tried to explain this to her, I always felt as though it was falling on deaf ears and an insensitive heart. (While Sara was always patient and polite while listening to me share difficult things with her, I always sensed that she was uncomfortable with it and was eager to change the subject. She never had any idea on how to comfort or console me when I was upset. Instead, I always just felt really stupid for opening up to her.)

When I would try to explain all of this to my counselor, Hal, he would suggest that I needed to just do the best I could at loving her and that eventually she would be more receptive and compassionate toward me. Additionally, he kept encouraging, even pushing me to be as physically intimate with Sara as she wanted me to be. (Sara wanted to “make out” virtually every time we got together. She knew how extremely difficult this was for me, and even though I was trying very hard, it never became easier. I just never made the connection in my mind that she apparently did in hers’ that this meant I didn’t love her that much. The reality was, I literally thought of her more as a sister than as a lover. However, I was forbidden by my own compassion toward her to not expose her too much to this harsh reality, even though she had basic knowledge of my issues. Nevertheless, and point blank, I just never desired her physically!! Do I feel horrible about that? Of course! Would I have handled things much differently if I could? Of course!

I need to say, that, I do not fault Sara whatsoever for her particular unmet needs. I, do, however, think she could have, and really should have, tried to understand and care about my needs just as much and to seek ways to fulfill them. Primarily, I just needed a friend and a soul-mate; not someone who felt threatened and jealous because of whatever other previous friendships I had. During this time, I was just getting over what was and what she correctly identified as, a “co-dependent” relationship with a roommate/friend of mine. I agree that I had had, an unhealthy friendship with this person. However, he was and is very straight, and he and I were strictly “platonic.” Nevertheless, I was constantly looking out for him, defending him, and even providing for him when necessary.

I had hoped that instead of condemning, criticizing, and shaming me for keeping this guy as a friend, that she would provide a compassionate and concerned ear, as any friend would have, that wouldn’t take it personally, but would be thankful for my trusting her enough to open up to her. Unfortunately, she didn’t. Whenever he came up in conversation, (usually because of some kind of trouble he was in) she acted extremely offended and judgmental. Instead of responding sensitively to my feelings (because he was a good friend and someone I cared much about, too), she only ridiculed me for having such an unhealthy relationship. (In fact, I remember now one of her verbal assaults against me was that I had “nothing but a dysfunctional family and fucked up friends.”)

I know and understand completely the pain and rejection she must have felt. And, perhaps I could have done a better job of explaining to her that I was wanting to choose her over him. The fact that I had this residual emotional attachment to him was just that, a fact. And, it was very personal to me, and since I was trying to invite her into my private world, both good and bad, I felt it was important that we be able to discuss issues like this, even though they might be emotionally threatening. Eventually, however, it became a taboo topic and most interactions I had with my friend, I had to keep protected from her, since she would always, only assume the worst (another common theme).

Several reasons were at play to explain why I wanted to maintain this relationship with Sara. Primarily, I was banking on hope and my belief that “love is a choice, not a feeling.” I sought advice from so many people and really wanted this relationship to work. But, this extremely significant factor was missing. Also, Sara just seemed so perfect in so many other ways. Her family loved me and my family loved her. We both thought that was a huge factor. Additionally, we both seemed to get along very well with each other’s friends. (In fact, because we both loved to travel, I dragged her all over the country to meet a lot of my different friends. I was eager to get a sense of their opinions of her.)

As time went on, however, there were some definite and significant disparities between us which were becoming more and more apparent. Other than traveling and socializing with friends, we never really shared the same interests or hobbies. Over time, this became a huge disappointment for me and contributed significantly to my depression.

Some significant changes occurred during a vacation to Florida that Sara and I took in April of 2003. It was during this trip that I first wrote anything negative about Sara in my journal and revealed for the first time that I was feeling somewhat controlled:

“Thursday, April 3, 2003
9:38am – I am sitting at a nice hotel in Key West, Florida, the southern-most point of the continental U.S. Sara and I drove down here yesterday – it took quite a while longer than I thought.

The weather hasn’t been as nice as I expected, but the scenery is fantastic. I’ve been spending so much money. For the first time during the trip, Sara started getting on my nerves – well, not really, but I felt a sharp disconnect – Jonathan called me to get some info as we were pulling into the hotel – and I was in a pretty good mood and happy with her and she just railed into me making all these slams against Jonathan saying she feels like he’s on this vacation with us and that he’s so co-dependent. It really caught me off guard and I pretty much let it roll off. But, it cut pretty deep and I’m pretty upset and angry about it. I’ve talked to him twice while we’ve been here; and I’m sure she’s jealous of my friendship with him. For the first time in a long time, I feel Jon and I are finally having a healthy relationship, and, that is just as important to me right now as my relationship with her. All that little outburst served was to further alienate me from her. — Man, I know that if I let her, she would easily control my life.”

The next day after this, I commented in my journal that I felt I had reached a new pinnacle in our relationship. Since Sara always seemed starved for physical affection, and since I continued to have such an annoying hang-up over it, I took advantage of the fact that that night, I had had too much too drink at dinner. This being the case, I realized how much easier it was to “make out” with Sara and she absolutely loved it!!

Needless to say, our relationship continued to progress in this manner. When once I made the comment, sometime shortly thereafter, while we were at my house watching a movie and drinking a rum and coke (again, in order to overcome my natural inhibitions), that “I can’t believe how much easier it is to make out with you after having a few drinks!” she so light-heartedly quipped, “I know! Drink up!” (Four devastating little words that I would often repeat to myself in order to do whatever it would take to be able to prove my love to her — and yet, would ultimately result in the devastation of our marriage, our family, and our dreams.)

And “drink up!” I did! … again, and again, and again, and again. It got to the point where she made sure there was alcohol in her house (beer or wine) whenever I would drop by. (At one point, I remember we were driving back to her place late one night in separate cars. I was following her. She frantically stopped into a gas station on France Avenue (since the liquor stores were already closed), to pick up a six pack of 3.2% Heineken and I just remember shaking my head and feeling a bit conflicted and guilty.

When I mentioned this new level of achievement to my counselor, Hal, he, of course, was very happy for me and us. I’m sure I downplayed the role the alcohol played to him, but I did let him know what I was using it for. (I should mention, I never had a history of abusing alcohol prior to my relationship with Sara. I also want to make it perfectly clear that I am not blaming her for it; however, this was a clear case of enabling.) Since I came to believe that God wanted me to please Sara, and that He also wanted me to overcome some of my issues, it was relatively easy to justify this behavior. However, we did, eventually, let the “physical intimacy” go too far on many occasions. [More than once, I allowed myself to get into such a drunken stupor and ended up being naked on her bed!] Sara and I disagree on this point, but I do not believe we were “virgins” when we finally got married. (I remember telling her during a sober moment, how uncomfortable I was, and felt that we should be saving some of this activity for marriage. She just whisked it off and tried to console me by saying, “Oh come on! Everyone fools around!” — I couldn’t believe I’d heard her just say that. She was wearing a “purity ring” that her parents had given her to remind her to stay celibate until she got married. I remember thinking, how hypocritical it was and couldn’t understand how she could be engaging in some of the shameful actions we were doing together (not to mention how experienced at it she was!), while at the same time, wearing that ring? It just didn’t make sense.

I was also confused as to how it was she seemed so experienced at “sex play.” It seemed like she knew what to do and what to expect . . . with a man, that is. Feeling somewhat disgusted, but asking very nicely, I once asked her, “how far did you ever get with your previous boyfriends?” She immediately said, “I don’t think it’s a good idea to discuss past relationships.” — I guess this should have been a huge red flag for me . . . but I let it slide.

I began feeling more and more uncomfortable and feeling coerced to “perform” for Sara. Instead of being sensitive and sympathetic to my particular issues, she began taking my lack of physical interest in her personally and ridiculing me. After we had “taken a break” from the relationship back in June 2003, she soon started talking about “wanting to know where this relationship was going?” As if I had had any experience whatsoever about dating relationships, I was definitely caught off guard. We hardly even knew each other, and I certainly hadn’t attained a level of trust and devotion toward her, yet. It was always my thought that a couple needs to reach a certain level of friendship before getting married, and that by the time you do, you’re actually marrying your best friend. Well, that’s not apparently how Sara saw things. She began threatening to leave the relationship if things didn’t move along.

So, I began to plan the most elaborate wedding proposal I could think of. On October 23, 2003, in the middle of Time Square in New York City, I got down on one knee and proposed to Sara holding the last of a dozen roses she had just picked up from various famous hot spots and historical places in Manhatten, being escorted by limousine. There was 1.3 carat Marquis diamond ring offset by princess diamonds on the sides (a personal investment of mine of over $12,000) wrapped around the stem of the rose along with a note that said, “Will you marry me?” It was her dream come true, and it was a total surprise to her and everyone we knew.

Once we got back to Minnesota, though, nothing else seemed to matter except for planning the wedding. She wanted to get married a lot sooner than I did, as well, and insisted on doing it as soon as we could find an available location at the most ideal reception hall. I gave in to her on that as well. Sara’s parents’ house turned into “wedding planning central” as the most spectacular wedding and reception was coming together. I worked my ass off to make as much money as I could to pay for all this. She moved into her parents’ house so that I could move into her house and rent out as many of the rooms there (in addition to the ones in my house in Burnsville.)

Obviously, with all this planning, there was nothing but more stress on our relationship and we just grew even further and further apart. We would still make time for each other, but we just weren’t having any fun anymore (nor could we afford it)! This is probably about the time my clinical depression began setting in and my loss of enjoyment for life began.

The wedding, however, on Friday, July 30, 2004, was the best we and most of our friends had ever seen before. It was very formal (black and white). We were married at Wooddale Church and the reception was held at The Lafayette on Lake Minnetonka. (And when all was said and done, the total investment in this extravaganza was roughly $35,000.) After it was all over, I took Sara by limo to a private location (actually, the Doubletree on 394 and 100), in a beautifully decked out Jacuzzi suite that had been decorated with rose petals and candles. EVERYTHING was so GD perfect. — Then it was time for our first “night” together. We attempted to have sex, but that’s about all it was . . . an attempt. ---- The next day, we were off to Phuket, Thailand for 12 days (as if we weren’t in more than enough debt already.)

The honeymoon was just that. It was great. I was so relaxed and happy. During this time, sex wasn’t so bad and I actually enjoyed just making Sara happy as she allowed me to just love her the way I felt comfortable doing.

Once we got back, however, our lives totally changed. We had just put down a down payment on a townhome in Eden Prairie, but it wasn’t going to be finished until November. So, for three months, although we owned three homes between us, we ourselves, were still homeless. I had come up with the idea of renting a room in an extended stay hotel for three months. We were incredibly cramped, but we somehow made it work. However, it wasn’t really working. I had just started school at the Carlson School of Management for my MBA. We were each really unhappy and bored with each other. Life was losing all flavor and I felt that there just wasn’t much to look forward to. She no longer seemed interested in the things I liked to do, and I didn’t want to spend every free moment at home like she did.

Sara kept demanding more and more of my time, and had so many expectations of me. On top of that, I was extremely stressed out and felt like I had no place to just rest. She continued to want attention and physical affection, and . . . sex almost every night! When I told her that I wasn’t comfortable being physically intimate with someone that I still feel is a stranger or with whom I’m feeling hostility from, that just made her angrier. She began losing all respect for me, and believed that I didn’t love her. The intensity levels of our fights increased and she started making personal attacks and even resorted to ridicule and name-calling, using some of the most vile, and vulgar language I never thought could possibly come out of the mouth of the most perfect Christian girl. (In my entire life, I had never had anyone call me the kind of crude names she called me, like: “You fing idiot!”, “YOU Ahole!”, “You F*ing Ahole!”, and even the worst of the worst “Fag” and “Faggot”) On frequent occasions, when I wasn’t able to “perform” in bed or just didn’t feel like it, she would often get extremely irate and several times physically kicked and pushed me extremely hard until I had to go down and sleep on the couch – both of us crying and yelling at one another! (On one of these occasions, I wrote in my journal, “I feel like my house is a warzone and my bed is the front lines.” (Some of the other acts of physical violence against me are listed below. To this day, she says this behavior is “normal” and hardly compares to anything I’ve done to her. I’m not sure on what planet it’s considered “normal” to through a gallon of milk at someone from 2 feet away you call your husband, but apparently that’s where she’s from. It’s devastating to me even now, to think that she’s never seriously apologized for any of this. She’s had no idea what kind of effect her overt rejection and behavior has had on me. I don’t mean to sound like a wimp or am trying to make any excuses, but she knew I was really sensitive and insecure. In fact, whenever I would try to communicate how her actions and words had hurt, she would either turn it back around on me and say how I’d hurt her or that I was just “too sensitive” and that I needed to “grow a backbone” and “be a man.” That’s rather difficult to do when she’s just emasculated me! On numerous occasions, when I had come home late and had had too much to drink, she actually called my parents who lived 6 hours away in the middle of the night –as if she were “telling on” me. I had become completely terrified of the woman. I remember thinking to myself that she’s just like a dragon, a blond dragon and I was nothing but a pitiful, pathetic slug.)

I never knew what to expect when coming to bed. I always took a huge sigh of relief when she was just asleep and I didn’t have to worry about her waking up. I was constantly feeling like I was walking on eggshells. If she wasn’t screaming at me for this or that, she was complaining. Sara never seems to have a good day. There was always something wrong; either someone pissed her off at work, or a family member, or she wasn’t feeling well. The house was usually a mess with stuff (both hers’ and mine, I’ll admit) lying everywhere and dishes constantly piled up. I know we were both busy professionals, but as much as she would argue otherwise, I definitely worked a lot more hours than she did.

I realized that a missing element in our relationship (at least for me, anyway), was fun. The only thing we ever could think of to do together was to go out to dinner – and spend $100.00 a pop. I really wanted for us to get bicycles because I loved bike riding. So, in May 2005, we went up to Erik’s Bike Shop in Eden Prairie and decked ourselves out with matching bikes. It was fun for a few times, but she gradually lost interest. Her bike would stay put in the garage and I was left to myself. (I put almost 400 miles on that bike over the summer just riding on my own.) Sara’s pastimes consisted primarily of just sitting around the house and watching reality TV shows and movies. She rarely knew anything about world events, politics, or social issues and lacked the ability to discuss these intelligently. While she could tell you in an instant what Britney Spears wore in her latest video or all the movies that Renee Zellweger has ever appeared in, she couldn’t tell you who the current Supreme Court Chief Justice is, who the current Secretary of State is, or, who the current potential Republican or Democratic nominees for president are (much less be able to distinguish their positions from each other.)

Another thing Sara was really into was her family. This was, at first, an extremely attractive trait. She was extremely close to her mother and loved hanging out with her. They are truly “best friends.” However, I somehow always felt threatened by her relationship with her mom. It always felt like she was in the middle, somehow. When I learned that Sara had been telling her mom all about my personal issues, I nearly lost it! I was SOOOO upset and felt SOOOO betrayed. I couldn’t even believe she would do such a thing to me!! She KNEW how sensitive I was about what people know about me, and yet, it never seemed to matter to her. I had promised to keep HER secrets that she had been engaged once before, to a guy that suddenly broke off their engagement two months before the wedding (BOY! would I love to talk to that guy now!), but, she never thought it necessary to keep my issues to herself – even though she promised she would. (It kills me to this day that she doesn’t care or think that this is such a big deal. She’s not even the least bit sorry for it.)

Then, in the summer of 2005, she wanted to get pregnant . . . . Despite the fact that we had agreed to wait at least 3 years before having children, she started nagging me about it and railing into me about it as soon as many of her close friends and even her recently married younger sister had gotten pregnant. I remember standing in the kitchen doing dishes or cooking (I did all the cooking), and looking at her in the living room as she was sitting on the couch watching TV with a scornful look in her eyes, “Why can’t we have kids?” “HUH???” ---- After a few weeks of her never letting up on this, I went ahead and made the worst decision of my life. In the very midst of our marital war, I agreed to go ahead and try to get pregnant. She was thrilled.

So, wouldn’t you know it?? Out came all these weird ovulation and pregnancy testing kits, computer tracking programs on the computer, thermometers, and new rules about when and how we were supposed to have sex. (I wasn’t “allowed” to take hot showers or, heaven forbid, sit in the hot tub at the health club!) Nearly EVERY conversation centered around how she was feeling, how the tests were going, whether she was ovulating or not. She had it ALL figured out!

I became nothing but an object of SARA’S dreams. My life, my goals, my interests, my concerns, my issues, were all only secondary (if not even totally irrelevant), to hers’. I just didn’t matter to her. So long as I was doing my job, making money, and keeping her happy, that’s all that mattered. And, so long as my private sins and weaknesses stayed “private” she could overlook those as well.

She had one miscarriage, and then got pregnant another month later. Needless to say, she was ecstatic. — But, I was still miserable and getting worse.

I began suspecting that I had an adult version of Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD). So, the beginning of 2006, I had several tests done and it was finally determined that I did. My physician prescribed Adderral, a stimulant drug that greatly enhances concentration. However, one of the side effects is when the drug wears off, it’s not uncommon for the patient to get depressed. Since I was already very depressed, to the point where I dreaded going home. I lost a lot of weight very fast, and because I still enjoyed having a drink or two after work before going home (to take the edge off), the effect of the alcohol was much more pronounced. I ended up getting a couple DUI’s within a short amount of time (the BAL’s were very low). This is when my life (November 2006) really began to spin out of control.

Austin had already been born by this time (and Sara and I hadn’t had “relations” in over a year). She pretty much took complete control over him. I had very little if anything to say about anything having to do with him. Ever since he was born, she treated him as if she owned him – as if he’s still a part of her own body. I always felt as though I needed to get her “permission” to do anything with him or take him anywhere. However, the same wasn’t true for her. If she were leaving to go somewhere, she’d just pack Austin up like he was one of her accoutrements (along with her $200 Burberry purse and brand new $300 Kate Spade diaper bag) and take him with her without even asking me. I always have, and still do resent her for this.

She came to see me as a big threat because I was often coming home late, (and, I do admit, I was often drunk!) However, I never engaged her in any heated arguments. It was always her coming down, loaded for bear, ready to confront me, resulting in an ugly argument. Instead of reacting with loving, compassionate disappointment because she expected more from me, she always treated me as though she were judging me while I was so nervously auditioning for her – trying to prove to her that I was good enough for her. Day after day after day after day . . . I just couldn’t handle such constant scrutiny. This is why I would try to stay away from her as much as possible, especially at night. I would deliberately stay up later (making excuses even to do so) and then would later tip-toe into bed without trying to wake her. Although I DID truly love her, and wanted to please her as best I could, she was just pushing me too hard, too fast. But, because of the advice I received from trusted Christian friends to “keep sacrificing”, “keep trying”, “keep loving”, etc. etc. etc. and from my mom who always told me, “Treat her like a queen!” I did exactly that. So, I internalized the constant criticism as valid . . . and came to believe I really, really was unfit. (Once, when I came home so late and drunk, and made a fool of myself, I remember her screaming at me, “You’re pathetic!” – I came to believe she was absolutely right . . . and, I wondered, how could someone like me, who had so much going for me prior to meeting her, get to such a dismal place? It NEVER occurred to me that there were any problems with her . . . it was ALL ME AND MY FAULT!!

(NOTE: Aside from the physical affection she so desired, I compensated for her in so many other ways – e.g. she was never denied any material possession she wanted, and I always conceded on all of our major life decisions. – Why, oh why, couldn’t she overlook the incredible sacrifices I made for her? Couldn’t she SEE that I was TRYING to make her happy?)

So, there I was, completely depressed, feeling utterly rejected by my wife who now had a happy little baby to keep her occupied and acceptable in the eyes of her friends and family. That’s all that really mattered to her. I became more and more irrelevant in her eyes. But, so long as the phony image, the façade of our perfect marriage to the external world remained intact, the marriage was worth maintaining in her mind. But, it was so hard for me not to feel resentful and used. I was never really a real “person” to Sara – I was just a means to an end to be controlled and manipulated in order to achieve HER life goals. She saw my vulnerabilities, my insecurities, my struggles, and used them to her advantage. Naively, I thought that if she would only understand, she would be able to care, to be compassionate, to be sensitive, to be patient. I remember telling her way before we were married that I needed my home (and her) to be my “safe place,” my “haven.” How ironic . . . instead of having the feeling that I was coming home every night to a place of rest and peace, I remember feeling like I was having to come back to a dragon’s lair.

A rebellious attitude eventually developed within me and I wanted to prove to her and the rest of the world that all is NOT well in paradise! Since my attempts to deal directly with our problems consistently backfired on me, I resorted to more passive-aggressive means. I reasoned (fallaciously), that if I only demonstrate by a destructive change in my behavior, she would conclude that something was wrong with our relationship. (I assumed this was the case because that is something I naturally assume when someone close to me starts pulling away from me and begins acting differently. When Sara gained an excessive amount of weight and seemed to be so depressed, I took it personally and assumed I was doing something wrong. Evidently, she never made the same assumption.)

Because of all my failings, and now recent legal trouble which served nothing but to completely embarrass her and put us into even more amounts of incredible debt, she came to hate me. (How do you live with someone who hates you? How is it possible to be warm and affectionate to someone like that?) I suppose it was during this time that I did a couple stupid things to try and “get back” at her. I don’t know why she never caught on how I was trying to reach out to her for help, because trying to talk to her never got us anywhere.

In any event, I refused to be defeated and realized that, even though I had a fantastic job at UnitedHealthcare, I needed to make more money. This is why I went out and found this consulting job for a few years working at Target Corporation downtown. The money has definitely been a lot better, and Sara was able to stay at home half time in order to watch Austin like she insisted on doing. (Her mother watches him the rest of the time while she’s working.) But, I had been putting in long hours, and hadn’t been able to get back home before 7 or 8, (sometimes 9) because I’d been taking the bus home.

The weekends had actually gotten a lot more relaxed and even fun. I started cooking again, and was making dinners for us. Sara had admitted that things were getting better (even just a little.) Last April, she and I decided to take this case off of active status. I went with her on a vacation to Florida a week later, to meet with some of her sales associates. She made a big deal about my having a couple drinks during the reception (I was being very careful to pace myself – but she didn’t care. I had thought that we had agreed it would be alright to have a couple). In any event, again feeling like she was trying to control me, I reacted very poorly and passive aggressively (again, since I know it’s useless to try and talk to her). If she just would have relaxed and not got on my case – I’m positive things would have gone much better. Yet, she refuses to trust me, and insists on treating me like a child. Now that she’s been gone, it’s been so nice to not feel as though I’m someone else’s puppet on a string. I can do what I want without fear of being ridiculed or shamed for it. It’s been so easy to quit drinking. While I’m still depressed about how things are turning out, and I soooo desperately miss Austin, at least there’s peace, calm, and sanity again. — I do still love Sara and always will. I just wish she would find room enough in her heart to consider my case and see my side of things — without getting defensive. But, I know now that she never truly loved me, nor was she ever really committed to me. She has only regarded me as another object to make her appear acceptable to the world around her; HER family, HER friends, HER co-workers . . . THAT was the audience she has been auditioning me for. Now that I have fallen down flat on my face on stage too many times and embarrassed and humiliated her, I’ve been summarily fired and it’s time to find a replacement.

Steven B.
June 26, 2007

StevenB,

Thats quite a long story and a lot to take in, but I did read it all =) You’ll find that since the large majority of narcissits are male, that support groups are full of females. The experiences are pretty much the same, but support groups for Borderline personality have a larger population of males and its helpful if you ever need that perspective. My ex had traits of both, and I find both places useful.

Only a doctor can really diagnose someone, and I wouldn’t attempt it. All sorts of things can come into play to cause certain behaviors. If you were treated badly these forums are still useful.

In the throws of my relationship I developed a horrible methamphetamine habit that I’m not proud of. In fact, a lot of that had to do with sex, I had my own disorder that makes it hard for me to be or crave pshysical intimacy. I was up front and honest about it with my current partner, and though it often bugs her and hurts her, she is understanding and we work on it together. No matter what problems we have, its always proper to treat each other with respect.

I myself have a schizoid personality disorder, and that makes some of us not crave physical intimact. I’ve heard a story about a guy who met friends on “asexual support forums” who found a partner just like him and they lived happily ever after.

My ex most likely had NPD. Our problems didn’t exsist just in bed, they consumed the whole relationship. It wasn’t that just that she treated me badly. She lied to me on a constant basis and was incapable of being honest. She did horrible things and cared only for herself, and felt absolutely no guilt or empathy for anybodies plight but her own. She was not capable of even recognizing people beyond being tools or playthings for her entertainment.

The best way to find out what was up with yours is to decide for yourself. Read lots of stories and member experiences from all over and see if the shoe fits.

Steven wrote:
Am I hearing here that just because she felt hurt and rejected by me, that that made it ok for her to treat me the way she did???"

You are hearing correctly. It is not that I agree with the perspective. It always takes two to tango - and there are always two perspectives, neither of which may be close to the truth.

Thing is, what you are perceiving is the ruling perspective on this board as applied to females only.

“I’m sure she’s jealous of my friendship with him. For the first time in a long time, I feel Jon and I are finally having a healthy relationship, and, that is just as important to me right now as my relationship with her. All that little outburst served was to further alienate me from her”

steven, it is indeed a long story, which to me sounds hopeless. Money and fancy weddings and babies do not go any way to covering up the fundamental issues that existed before you even started dating. It strikes me that you have both been hopeful and niave in wishing that the poblems will disappear if you want tham to enough. Fair to say many of us are guilty of that.

My feeling is that you used her as much as she used you. You wanted to be normal and so did she, you had the money and the families and the homes and the holidays and all the trappings of a wonderful life, but how could it work? marriage is a special thing, intimacy and exclusivity is important. Of course a jonathon with whom your relationship was IMPROVING as your relationship with your wife was DETERIORATING is going to be a problem. I cant honestly see how this was ever going to work. i can only see that it would spiral as it has into a living hell. You become a drunk, she starts to rage and abuse.

you both have problems and you both have anger and resentment, but you both have a beautiful little boy. I think you both need help and I think you need it separately and together. This child needs to be parented and you have a bigger family circle to consider as well, grandparents etc. The way she left you was shocking and must have been horrendous without warning, and you dont say much about the divorce battle or your relations together now. But i think that is where you have to focus now. Whatever she is (and if she is NPD, that is going to be extremely tough) you have not been particularly honest with yourself let alone her. You drank to give her sex and she let you. You are neither able to meet each others needs as man and wife, and you never were.

For Austins sake, the facts and harsh realities have to be looked at and I hope to god the two of you can find the civility and understanding for each others disapointment and hurt to do something positive together for him.

i am so sorry for all 3 of you, and hope you will resolve this mistake as best you both can and that you will follow your heart and treat yourself to the honesty that you deserve, as painfull as that might be.

nic

Honesty is always the best policy, I have found. Be honest with yourself, and your life will turn around.

Steven,

Life certainly isn’t always easy is it. You seem to have a good memory of the events and that allows you to reflect on things - something I don’t have much of.

A couple of things I’d like to say:

  1. It is concerning that your therapist pushed you and didn’t really listen to your issues. Especially being physical with Sara when you didn’t want to be…that just doesn’t sound right to me. I know finding the right therapist is very important and currently I need to find someone that is experienced and understands our issues specifically. When I mentioned Narcissism to my last therapist she looked at me like I had three heads - so, I recommend doing what I need to do which is find a professional specifically experienced in understanding personality disorders and the effects on victims.

  2. You seem to have issues with your sexuality. This isn’t abnormal and I know it’s easy for me to sit here and say you shouldn’t be ashamned of that but that is what I would say. Our upbringing and environnent during our early years I believe sets in a person as to whether sex is a thing not to be spoken of (my situation) or something to be embraced and not shameful at all. I believe that if you are raised in an environment that it is something not spoken of (translation shameful) that it makes it very difficult for us to follow our desires publicly and creates a lot of self-shaming that is so hard to deal with. Now, you could be homosexual, heterosexual or both but I wish you the best in following your heart and finding those to surround yourself with that actually embrace you for who you are and where the friendship is not based on sexual preference. My experience is that homesexual individuals are some of the most accepting people I know. I think or at least hope that as time goes by that our society will be better accepting of these issues but that will be a long time coming.

I’m obviously not a professional and don’t profess to say that I know how to help you - I’m only giving you my thoughts based on my life experiences and in evaluating your post.

Best wishes - follow your heart - it shoulds like that has been difficult and don’t feel alone - a lot of us are in the same boat with you.

Lori

wow…

I don’t know if your wife is npd, either. She may be. Or, she may be responding to what I’m sure has been an emotional roller coster ride that has taken it’s toll on her mental health and her sense of reality and her own sense of self.

I understand and sympathize with what you have been through, what you were trying to accomplish, and the reasons for some of your actions including not being 100% honest with her or yourself about some very important things.

But, being lied to, in my opinion and expereince, can be an emotionally abusive experinece, every bit as damaging as being hit. Not really knowing the whole story until you are ‘in love’ or otherwise bonded to an individual…only later to be let in or discover some hard truths, and trying to hang on and trust and have a normal relationship after certain ‘truths’ are revealed, hanging on based on the love and attachment you have for the person, but never really knowing if you’re safe (is my husband in love with another man or me?)…that messes with a person’s mind in a very unhealthy, toxic manner, even an otherwise ‘normal’ person would begin to exhibit signs of severe distress and not feel and act like themselves over time.

Being lied to, never really knowing where you stand, never really knowing the ‘truth’, having ‘other potential loves or attachments’ constantly looming in the background when you are supposed to be in a ‘committed’ relationship, frankly, is a recepie for disaster and a brutal mind-f***. I don’t think you have put yourself in your wife’s shoes, and really thought about how totally confusing and distressing this relationship must have been for her.

Honesty is so important. It is so worth it to be honest at all times to prevent this exact kind of situation. My opinion? Start apologizing to your wife sincerely and repeatedly for the emotional roller coster she has been through. Apologize, apologize, apologize, and empathize with the situation she has been placed in. I hope she can learn to feel safe enough to co-parent your child together with you.

I am sorry she took off the way she did, but I suspect she felt she needed to leave what had become a very toxic relationship and if she didn’t do it fast and hard, she may of feared she would never do it???

Based on the unusual stressors you have described being present in your relationship w/ your wife…it would be impossible, and frankly, not fair to assume she is personality disordered. You are not to be ashamed for who you are and you ambiguous feelings regarding your sexuality etc., there is no shame in that. But, your ambiguity, I think, spilled over into another’s life and created emotional chaos for HER. She seems clear that she is 1) heterosexual and 2) sexually attracted to you. These don’t make her a better person than you, but it makes her clear about herself; wheresas you were not clear about yourself and I think she was hanging on and hoping for the best and living in fear of the worst for a long time. Your lack of clarity, I feel, unintentionally placed her in an impossible and emotionally painful situation. We are never doing ourselves or anyone else a FAVOR by hiding who we are, or hiding or own confusion about who we are.

Good luck, it will work out over time. Try to have as much compassion as you can for your wife. I don’t know too many people that would have known how to handle this kind of confusing situation w/out going a little crazy.

Best to you.

Thank you all for your honest replies. It’s been good to hear from other perspectives. The reality is, I wrote this story several months ago, very shortly after Sara moved out of the house and many things have changed.

I have been maintaining my own secured website/blog for people interested enough to keep up to date with the details of my case:

www.stevenberg.org
Login = visitor1
PWD = password

  1. I have actually apologized to my wife: several times, in fact. I have totally come clean with her. I know I put her through a lot as well. (She has not reciprocated, however.)

  2. I have heard before that I never really put myself in her shoes and am failing to understand things from her perspective. I think part of the true but sad reality here is that we were both way too much alike: we were both selfish, and, probably even narcissistic. Even though I never resorted to lying, name-calling or physical violence, I was also trying to create the perfect little world – and, yes, used her for it. I’m not sure, though, that she feels any resentment towards me for that, since she had the same objective (although with slightly different goals and means to getting there). I KNOW she felt rejected – but, so did I. And, not only was I rejected, I was EXPLOITED. She took extremely personal and painful information about me and revealed it to others in order to gain sympathy for herself. (Something she’s still doing now.) This was a BIG problem, that, I think, ultimately sent me over the edge.

  3. I appreciate the comment that I don’t really have the right and that it’s not fair for me to try and label her with a personality disorder, given the total HELL I know that I put HER through and the multiple issues I probably have within myself. – This has only been me trying to get a better understanding of what was going on between us – how I could have developed such a dismal inferiority complex a totally shattered self-esteem.

  4. Others have also told me before that I have not been honest with myself, that I’m confused about who I am, etc. I’m not sure that that’s a fair assessment, though. If I want the life of a happy, heterosexual man, and, if I believe that that is how God intended men to be (even though my inclinations may be otherwise), I think I am being honest, in that, I’m being true to my beliefs. (Now, this doesn’t necessasrily mean that my beliefs are misguided; only that my behavior and choices have been consistent with those beliefs).

Also, as I said in my story, Sara was very well aware of the issues I was facing. From extremely early on in our dating relationship, I revealed the truth to her. However, while she agreed to continue with the relationship, she always made it clear that those were MY issues and that I needed to fix them. Instead of getting some loving and compassionate support that I was expecting (and like other men in my situation have been able to find in their wives), she continually made me feel as though I was less of a man. Every disagreement, every fight, every name she called me, chipped away at that already fragile image of masculinity that I had – until it was virtually destroyed.

I don’t want anyone to think that I’m putting most, or even as much as equal “blame” on Sara. I’ll gladly accept 99% of it (well, maybe 90% :slight_smile: , but, the ONLY thing that’s been difficult for me to resolve is that she refuses to come clean with me. I have confessed and apologized to her and am no longer carrying the burden of a guilty conscience. But, WHY can’t she simply acknowledge that she hurt me, too? WHY does she insist that her behavior toward me was “normal”? WHY can’t she see things from MY side instead of only insisting that I look at HER side of the story? WHY can’t she at least give me the benefit of the doubt and believe that I never truly MEANT any harm, but that I was only acting according to what I believed was true, and right, and good? (Even though I often failed miserably at it.)

Right now, I just want peace and quiet. I don’t want her to take my son away from me; and along with that, my dignity. I desperately want our son to grow up loving both of his parents; and, for his parents to at least share an amicable relationship.

Thanks again!

  • Steven

SMG btw, very very well put!

“for people interested enough to keep up to date with the details of my case”

Am trying not to be judgemental, but you gave us your story and now your like. theres more!

This is not a “case” the who is wrong and who is right is really not the issue. Its where you are now that matters.

Your talking to people who are living /have lived with no apologies or responsibility being taken, living with a closure only they can find for themselves.

I think the difference here is that however justified you are in what you have done, it does not necessarlly make it forgiveable. I can forgive you, right here and right now, but you didnt do it to me! Nobody is here to say you have done right or you have done wrong, this is a support forum. your version of events and how you feel wronged has made me feel sorry for BOTH of you.

I feel for you in your pain, I really do, but by god I would be in bits if i were your wife.

There are parts of your last post that remind me of my husband, I think those are the jsutification parts. “its not my fault” its my “lawyer” (in his case) or its my “beliefs” or whatever. Am sorry babe, but you used this woman, and it didnt work out. Blame is not the issue, and niether, right now is forgiveness.

Get off of you. Get off of her. That child is the issue.

nic,

I don’t deny that she’s “in bits.” But, she’s got family and friends to pick them up and support her. I just don’t. I’m not from this state and am just miserable, lonely, depressed, and feel like I’ve been hit with a locomotive and am now being dragged across the tracks until I’m COMPLETELY emptied of any hope and happiness. She has nearly drained me financially (despite my urgent pleas to settle things amicably).

I turned to this group looking for some sympathy and understanding. I can’t keep wallowing in my confounded stupor and misery. I’ve heard all the lectures; I’ve experienced enough guilt. It’s NOT about me and it’s NOT about her, but, am I (simply because I’m a man), not allowed to feel the same pain, hurt, and rejection?

If not, then I’m sorry to have troubled any of you.

Thanks

come on now, steven, feeling sorry for yourself doesn’t really help anything, either. you’ve been given a lot of support, understanding, and and words of hope here ALONG with some feedback regarding the bizzare and painful situation your wife must have felt she was in. You have gotten both support and some opinions and feedback regarding what might be your wife’s experience, you have recevied a good blend of BOTH, which is what life is all about, the ability to sit with both sides, not just your own side. Plus, the reality is, all you have control over is YOU, not your wife and what she DID or DOES. You only have control over what YOU do. I am of course also responding to your story from where I’m coming from. Some of your thought processess sound very much like my bf’s, who is either a little npd or a little aspergers or both. It’s very similar. He has lied to me many times and the lying has caused me so much pain and distress and confusion and frankly it’s a mind f***. I’m not use to it; up until meeting him, the people in my life have all been basically honest w/ me, atleast about things that are weighty and significant and have to do w/ trust in an initimate relationship. His actions have casued me so much emotional pain in the past. Funny though, in HIS mind there were alwasy good reasons for why he lied or hid or did what he did. GOOD REASONS. One of his favorite and most heartfelt sentences he repeats to me was “It wasn’t my intention to hurt you”. With the implication being, since it wasn’t intended, then I really have no basis for being SO HURT. It’s as though in his mind, if he was not intending to hurt a person, then they really have no reason to be so hurt, and if they are so hurt, there is something wrong or they are over-reacting or trying to hurt HIM by their show of pain. Once they hear from him that it was not intended, the HURT should just magically go away. When the hurt does not just magically go away w/ his insistence it was not intentional, he begins to feel like HE is being victimized by my tears or my anger or my resolve to not let him hurt me that way again. The chip missing in his brain is the empathy and full understanding that even if you never INTENDED in a million years to hurt somone, if your actions have indeed hurt them, they are indeed hurting…possibly even very signifigantly. To hear the person who hurt you keep insisting ‘but I didn’t mean to hurt you’…frankly, makes the hurt feel even worse, and it also engenders FEAR…that if this person can’t SEE how this behavior would be hurtfull…then they are likely to keep doing it over and over…and keep saying ‘but it’s not my intention to hurt you’, to make it all go away. There is a disconnect in the thinking, the empathy, the thought process. I’m not saying this to be mean, I’m saying this is the faulty thinking that is indicative of npd behaviors in the first place. This is the kind of thing I work on w/ my bf.

If you accidently elbowed your wife in the face and broke her nose…blood was spilling everywhere and she was crying from the pain…your job would be to take her to the hospital, apologize as many times as it takes, sooth her pain and fear, and tend to the damage you caused in anyway you could. The fact that you did NOT mean to elbow her in the face, while important in the overall scheme of things, does not remove the damage or the pain you have unintentionally inflcited on another human being. If she made some nasty comments while in pain and fear… it would not be fair to hold that against her. A one time ‘mistake’, sincerely tended to, would be forgotten by most people pretty quickly. If your wife is repeatedly unintentionlly elbowed in the face and caused pain and damage, never knows if you will be careful not to do it again, and keeps hearing you don’t intend to cause hurt but do anyway over and over…in time, the person on the receiving end of the elbow will begin to become bitter, fear driven, and suspicious of every move you make. Similar to ptsd, they have been trained like pavlovs dog to expect pain whenever you are near.

Something to think about.

Best to you,

smg

I think the “NPD can only be diagnosed by a professional” is more of a disclaimer. There are people out there that mistakenly label their partner when it was their fault, or maybe both their faults. It does happen. (Not to imply anybody here is doing that.) Lots of us though didn’t have the option of of getting our partners diagnosed professionally though, and were smart enough to figure out we were dealing with stuff far beyond normal relationship issues, and have to do the best we can to find the reason. I think my ex had several disorders, and I don’t thinks it unfair or unreasonable.

I’m a male and have gone through a horrible realtionship, and I have found that women have no problem accepting that. I believe its easy for them to recognize that being with an NPD can be hell, no matter what sex both of you are.

I think Nic makes some reasonable points. I didn’t think I saw anything in your post that made NPD jump out at me, but seemed more like a a dysfunctional relationship fueled by other issues from both sides. I can understand how your partner felt, but I don’t think throwing milk cartons or forcing you to be someting your not is appropriate. I can also see how you trying to change something you are unsuccessfully can be stressful. Maybe if people aren’t seeing things the way you think we should its because of the way you told the story, plus… we dont know you… and we don’t know the whole story.

If I described the last year or two of my last relationship, and told of my issues and behaviors and my exes they might see that we were both behaving badly. It might seem the two of us were playing into each other. the bigger picture is different. I was a nice understanding and forgiving guy. While my ex behavior was outrageous and bad since her childhood, I only started acting out due to hurt feelings and depression, and only after being exposed to her disorder for several years.

I had plenty of issues going into that past relationship that I would have found understandable for my partner to be upset. If she was upset that I wasn’t sociable, or that I often got distant, I’d understand. But with her, since she had a disorder, everything about me was an issue. If got upset because she cheated on me, or flirted with guys or led them on, or didn’t support her in her war with the neighbors… it was an issue for her.

I have tons of issues, but I’m open and honest about them from the beginnign of any relationship or friendship. If I lived my life as if I didnt, or led people to believe I had power over it or that it would eventually change, it would cause problems.

I was upfront in my current relationship, I was even insecure enough to think I wasn’t worthy of being in a relationship. I have problems that I’m working on but don’t know if I can ever change. My partner knows this and accepts it and we both have a lot of knowledge about what were getting into and whats going on. Wed never be abusive to each other over it because we aren’t hiding anything. Shes the one that convinced me to let her decide for herself if it was something she was willing to take on. Sometimes it bothers her, sometimes it bothers me, but we accept each other for they are. Someday it might be too much for her and that would be okay. People can have relationships with issues, its how they handle those issues that often cause any dysfunction.

Steven,

Hate to tell you but yes, you have jumped into a group here that are female, and thus innocent completely of what happens to them in life. Males are the bad guys and all narcissistic. Their spouses are totally to blame for walking off from them after they so sacrificed their lives for them. They perceive themselves as liberated but everything in life that happens is because they are victims of the males who actually are responsible for everything, females having no responsiblity. There is not much more to the story beyond that.

WY gave you good advice on seeking better support from borderline personality boards who are usually females - very prone to false accusations. The best I can tell you is to be more honest with yourself, stop complicating with over analyzing, play to win as best you can but minimize your losses when things are stacked against you, and then get on with your life having learned a very bitter lesson. Life is not fair.

I’m not feeling “sorry for myself.” I’m just feeling grossly misunderstood. My sincerity and my integrity are constantly being doubted and castigated – except by those who truly know me.

Also, I wasn’t suggesting that by simply SAYING I never “intended” to hurt her or anyone, that that negates my culpability. If it appears that I am not accepting full ownership, responsibility, and the consequences of my own actions, then, what am I supposed to do?

What will it take to truly demonstrate that I AM sincere? I DON’T want to fight anymore, but, I don’t understand why she continues to insist on it.

I have to say, I do feel as though there’s a serious double-standard, here. If it’s true that there’s NEVER a legitimate excuse to abuse another person, then why is my situation different? The truth is, I NEVER hit her, I NEVER called her names, I NEVER kicked her (literally) out of bed, I NEVER physically restrained her from trying to leave the house, and, I NEVER threw anything at her. And yet, for whatever reason she felt justified in doing so, SHE has done ALL of these things to me!

Am I hearing here that just because she felt hurt and rejected by me, that that made it ok for her to treat me the way she did???

What if our situations had been reversed? What if it was ME who had been constantly refused sexually by her? Would it have then been ok for me to start yelling at her, calling her a b****h, and then kicking her (literally) out of the bed and then locking the bedroom door so she couldn’t get back in? Perhaps (“ok”) is too strong, but, would it be understandable, at least? Would you be trying to get HER to see how badly she hurt me?

I dont mean to kick anyone while they are down. I have only told snippets of my story, because i have not even got my story onto perspective as yet. I have been too embarassed to tell it in many ways. i thought about that this morning in my bath. i am lookinf for support and yes, sympathy, from people who do not even know my story. you have been completely honest and up front in providing your whole story from the very beginging. i just dont know that I see NPD as being the issue in your story.

your wife has gone, my boyfriend went, my husband got dumped and beats on me and the kids for it, its all unfortunate but if your here looking for your wife to be judged on her actions am not sure you are in the right place.

She has not met your needs, in that respect, you are among friends.

x

If she was always fully aware and fully informed of the dynamics of you, your attitudes toward sexuality, and your ambivilence toward her sexually…if she always fully informed and knowledgeable about who you are and where you stand upfront, what you can and cannot give her, and signed on enthusiatically only to FLIP OUT and abuse you when you behaved EXACTLY as you explained you would behave…then, I agree, she sounds like she put herself in a no win situation for some reason, and then took out all her frustrations on you. If the due dilligence was there…and she still ‘freaked’ and abused you after signing on to what you had to offer, then you, too, are in a no win situation. I did not get that impression from your original writing; if I misunderstood, my apologies.

It takes two to tango when due dilligence has been met and both people are operating from a level playing field.

My bf always hid a bunch of ‘key’ information from me…I would be operating and conducting my life based on promises and values that he would lconvincingly have me believe in, then later I would find out the promise or value was not really ‘true’. That pisses me off. Big time. It is not my job to learn to ‘be nice’ when I find out I’ve been lied to. In that sense, it does NOT take TWO to tango… that is NOT FAIR and two people were not actually tangoing at all…one person had all the information, true and untrue, the other person was kept in the dark and manipulated. That is NOT a dance of two, that is a dance of ONE.

Also, either a man or a woman can behave this way…I have no preconcieved ideas about women being innocent of bad behavior. Bad behavior is an equal opportunity situation in my opinion; as wastedyouth points out, you only need to read the posts on the borderline websites to read absolute horror stories from men suffering with a bpd wife or gf.

Steve, the above as I describe it may have nothing to do with your experience… perhaps I did not read your situation accurately, my apologies if that is the case. Your initial writing explained you first started to chat w/ her in Sep on eharmony. A couple of months later you suggested to her you wanted an exclusive dating relationship and told her “she makes you want to be a better man.” She still knew nothing of your sexual situation. It was only after all that you decided it was only fair to let her know that you are not sexually attracted to her.

That would have thrown me for a curve; but then, that’s just me!

smg

Hate to tell you but yes, you have jumped into a group here that are female, and thus innocent completely of what happens to them in life. Males are the bad guys and all narcissistic. Their spouses are totally to blame for walking off from them after they so sacrificed their lives for them. They perceive themselves as liberated but everything in life that happens is because they are victims of the males who actually are responsible for everything, females having no responsiblity. There is not much more to the story beyond that.  susiejo

Susiejo, I don't why you feel you have the right to speak for me or charactarize me or others who contributed to this thread as "females who feel they have no responsibility for anything and that all males are bad guys and narcissistic"...who died and made you God???  You do not speak for me, I did not vote to have you speak for me or represent me in any way, we don't even know eachother, and I don't appreciate being lumped into some mythical man-hating cohort.  If I thought women were always innocent victims, I would say as much.  I have never said that, because I don't, in fact, believe that to be true.  It was suggested by Steve in his own writing that his ex-wife knew him for nearly 4 months having met on eharmony before he shared w/ her he was not even sexually attracted to women.  I suggested this could cause a lot of problems and was probably hurtful and confusing to her.  Suggesting that this important bit of information being kept hidden might understandably cause problems does not constitute man-bashing.  I don't know what his wife is responsible for; she is not expressing herself on this forum, whereas, Steve has.  Do not  presume to speak for me or take it upon youself to characterize me.

smg

Hmmm,

I think for a woman to call a man a “faggot” or throw things at him or push kick or shove is is verbally and emotionally abusive, and an inappropriate response to someone with sexual issues such as a lack of a sex drive, or impotence, or anything for that matter. There a mature an adult way to handle such matters, and that is not one of them. I don’t think its appropriate to be abusive to friends, spuses, or children. I do make a recognition though, that some people start acting in such was after being subjected to extremely stressful and abusive relationships for a long time. In those situations, I find it understandable. You don’t need other people to valididate your own experience.

I don’t think its abnormal for women who’ve been through rough relationships to see or recognize these traits in other men, or even be triggered by them. They will occasionally say all men are assholes, or that all men are NPD or narcissitic, but its usually out of fear or anger or caution. I think its quite common for them, due to their own experience, to give the female the benifit of the doubt.

You might find me doing the same thing. There are days I think all women are borderlines, or see borderline traits in women. I don’t think I’m abnormal or a bad person for doing so. Its a natural response to what I’ve been through. Me, just like others, even recognize we sometimes do it. I’m cautios of people, and I look for abuse from women because its something I empathize with.

I am a male, and I’ve been through one of these experiences. On top of that, I may even suffer from my own personality disorder. But despite all that, I’ve been treated fairly here, and I’m impressed with the people here for doing so. I think everyone should stop listening to each other about what to believe and just let things take their course and let people decide for themselves. There is nobody here I’ve talked to which fits the description I saw here, which doesn’t fit with the idea that everybody here is that way.

Going to borderline forums is a great idea. You wont always hear the things you want to, so take the good things and dismiss the others, but theres no need to resent people for offering their opinions. There are people here with open minds who will change their opinions and points of view if you take the time to get to know them better. If I were to look for flaws or bad things about people I’d have no friends because I’d find something in everybody. Nowadays I’m doing away with black and white thinking and finding that even if somebody has bad traits or different ideas, their are still things of value in them.

Sometimes people dont agree with me or see things my way and its upsets me. Often, more discussion can clear that up if you give people the credit they deserve.

when I left my husband I did it because I wanted something that was wrong to be over, and because I wanted the fighting to stop.

Sadly the fighting has not stopped, and I realise that this is because he has NPD. The more awkward and complicated thigs can be, the better for him. My children have suffered, I have suffered and my husband has had supply. The cost to him is merely another weapon to use against me. Something else to be my fault and my doing. I know my husband feels completetely abused, and he would call me an abuser. I did hit him in the chest once in sheer frustration and from that day forth i was officially labelled and any physical violence by him was completely justified. Questioning anything he did was abuseive, why? because he said so and NPD has its very own own moral and legal code.

I personally have a text book case. There is no question in my mind of is he or isnt he. I have 2 wonderful brothers whom I adore and many male friends. I believe that many women are manipulative and narcissistic, my brother married one and became half the man he had been. Thankfully she found hereslf another and dumped him, or he would still be there now, providing everything while she shreiked at him for breathing. And he is a man who does not know HOW to shout.

All i know is that so much goes on, so many stories to tell, so much injustice. Thats how it is with NPD. My first year of marriage was the worst. My h always used to say “they say the first year is the worst” and it was. But in those days i had not developed the “shut us and put up” technique of how to navigate my life. Life with an NPD IS LOOSE LOOSE.

Despite how some people like to portray virtually every member of this group, I dont blame my husband, I dont whinge (much) about 17 years of shit and situations and manipulations. I am not here to blame men because I married one. I blame myself for making a huge mistake which I continue to pay for in many ways.

If your wife is NPD, I feel very very sorry for you because with one so little - Austin, your battle is really only just beginning. I hope for all your sakes she is not NPD, just hurt and confused and angry. Those feeling will mellow, and the situation will improve. NPD never mellows and never changes.

nic

Nic,

“I did hit him in the chest once in sheer frustration and from that day forth i was officially labelled and any physical violence by him was completely justified. Questioning anything he did was abuseive, why? because he said so and NPD has its very own own moral and legal code.”

Mine always felt he was being abused, too. He always felt justified even before I started making any mistakes. I don’t see how anybody couldn’t lose their cool every once in a while when dealing with these kinds of things. They live in a world of their own with its own set of rules that are always in their favor.

Steven,

There are people here who don’t fit the description laid out here and i dont even think there are that many people even left here. The more you share the more people might identify with what youve been through.