ps Yes, I still agree we all need and deserve the best.
No, none of us should tolorate any abuse ever!
I don’t think we should put up with it but … I still want to see the other side.
Isn’t our goal to help each other? Raise awareness? What if we could have a breakthorugh and actually do something about this?
Maybe it would take all of our opinions and thoughts together to come to a new solution or idea.
hopetoday
i hear you and my heart cries for you. right now you are willing to grasp onto any sidgen of hope because you think you love this man. what you love, however, NEVER EXIHISTED! i am sorry. i wish i could tell you differently but it is true. you are in love with a gohst. until you finally accept this, and one day you will, you will live in a state of trapped confusion between what your heart wants to believe and what your mind is fighting for you to SEE wich is what is truth and reality. i wish you could go back and read some of your posts, your list would be a good one, and digest your words through the mind of an objective observer, without your emotions clouding the REALITY of what you wrote. it is your EMPATHY, your abiltiy to love that makes you want to believe that your ex can realte to you with the same feelings that you relate to him. It won’t happen! we all wish that there was some miracle cure out there to turn our exs into the men that they pretended to be and it burns my ass that someone is spouting off at the mouth without having the medical and scientific credentials to back it up! i know it is hard to understand but your ex, or mi ex, or any N, does not want or understand your empathy for him. in fact, it is what he truly despises and is disgusted by in you! i wish i could just make you see. i wanted so badly to help my ex, make him whole, take away his pain. i found out why he is the way he is and it crushed my heart for the little boy that never go to grow. i also allowed myself to see him for what he his and nolonger wanted to believe his lies. through my discovery of the horrible things he da been doing behind my back for NINE years i look at him differently. some of these things were done on a very concious level. HE DID NOT CARE HOW HE HURT ME! that is hopw they are, how they ALL are. i have been where you are, wanting desperately for the truth not to be true. but you have lived in the lie for a while and your mind is strong and it WANTS you to see what your heart is blind to. stay strong… let go … he is not for you. he is not for anyone and HE DOES NOT EVEN CARE!
peace
There are many experts who also now believe that N’s can be treated
successfully, most don’t want the job though! The staunch opinion that this
condition cannot be cured is held primariy by an expert on the disorder that
is also a self confessed full blown N! I think that his own grandiosity
should be taken into account. Claiming himself incurable makes his position
much more dramatic! He obviously has an incredible insite into the workings
of an N’s mind but I don’t know how healthy or useful that is for partners
of N’s to spend too much time exploring when he himself admits that he has
few answers!
Sam:
I advise you to actually read what I wrote before you badmouth me and peddle
to vulnerable victims false “information” (I don’t want to use the
legally-loaded word “scam”).
Educate yourself and stop self-enriching by preying on victims. With
narcissists behavior modification is possible but never, ever curing or
healing of any sort. Narcissists are utterly and hopelessly incurable.
This is not MY position. This is the universal and unified position of all
mental health professionals: behavior modification - YES, cure - NO.
As I see it, there are two options:
Either you are a cold-hearted and cynical con-artist (because you ARE making
money from peddling false hopes and malignant optimism to devastated victims
of narcissists and psychopaths)
OR
You are self-delusional and live in fairy land. If this is the case, try not
to drag others into your pathology. Read this to wake up:
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal27.html
Healing Narcissism
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq63.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq77.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq70.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq12.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/10.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/case03.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq31.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/abusefamily8.html
http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders37.html
http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders45.html
Surviving the Narcissist
http://samvak.tripod.com/faq80.html
The Inverted Narcissist - Codependence and Relationships with Abusive
Narcissists
http://samvak.tripod.com/faq66.html
Codependence and the Dependent Personality Disorder
http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders22.html
The Dependent Patient - A Case Study
http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders56.html
Danse Macabre - Trauma bonding and the Stockholm Syndrome
http://samvak.tripod.com/abusefamily.html
The Cult of the Narcissist
http://samvak.tripod.com/journal79.html
I wish you complete healing.
Sam
Regardless if this is true or not… I NEED to learn how to let go! This is my problem!
I have to go to work but I want to comment super quick!
I guess I also felt like there is a scale of when an N is an N and we are all self diagnosing.
I would love a professional’s opinion on sam, on kimco, on all of us. Get their take on this conversation. We all have our own agenda here.
THANK YOU!!!
I am not going to lie, I want to believe still! BUT I am not going to lie I also want to run, I am looking for that person I don’t have to parent too!
I feel like I want to be free and when I fight or have conflicts, that they be real and not about something we should have learned in 1st grade!
I don’t know… I just want everyone to know I value and consider and think about everyone’s opinions and I think they are all valid.
no?
Also, I am just confused so please excuse any ramblings.
the professionals are using my book as textbook.
My book is based on 11 years of research and study into professional and
scholarly papers, books, and publications.
BUT
Do your own search.
Simply Google “Narcissistic Personality Disorder”
Click on “for health professionals” under “Refine results for Narcissistic
Personality Disorder”.
See what they have to say about treatment and healing.
Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: “hopetoday” npd-cpt6202@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] ANY ONE READ OR SEEN THIS???
I don’t have all the answers and I find that there is a lot of truth to this topic. However, I do believe that not all narcissist are the same in the since that our situations are all different. Yes we all can relate, yes they have the same narcissistic behaviors but we are all different. We all feel things differently and experience things differently. I think for myself, I have put 25 years into my relationship. Do I regret it, sometimes. Did he change, a little in somethings and a lot in others but he never truly changed. He turns into the man I want him to be when I am ready to walk out that door. He can become this man for a long time. Do I get hooked. YES! everytime. I would be lying if I said that people can’t change. Everyone makes changes through the course of their lives, some good, some bad but how long you can handle this type of life waiting and hoping for changes that may or may not occur? My mother always tells me…only you know when enough is enough. Personally, I am 44 years old, been living with an abusive man for 25 years… Do I love him? Of course I do but am I getting tierd? YES. I need for myself to finally have some peace. My husband has shown me so many times the person that he could be and has held onto that person for very long stretches but to no avail he always shows his other self. This last time it almost cost me myself. I was becoming a stepford wife without even realizing it. I am a strong individual, I do know myself very well and I did try to do a lot of the things mentioned here and that was on my own knowledge of watching his responses to what I did or said. I have learned a great deal of how to handle him but I’m not liking the fact that in the process, I am becoming a BITCH. He respects a bitch not me. I don’t like having to be so head strong and staying one step of ahead of him in order to contain the situations. Sometimes it makes me feel like he’s turning me into what I hate the most just to keep the peace. So, have I had enough? YES!
There was one time that I felt just as some of you who stayed with their husbands, I thought I had made the most perfect choice. He was the man I loved and going through what we had seemed to be justified by what we had built together. I remember that wonderful loving relationship very clearly. However it didn’t last forever. Unlike what I had envisioned it all slowly changed. Now I am left with total untrusting feelings for him. He showed me something and gave me a life for awhile that I had always dreamed of but he decided when we could have this relationship and he decided when it would end. They are not puppets that you can play with bending and molding into people that we want them to be. Yes they can change but to what extent and for how long? You see they are good at what they do. So it’s up to you and only you can decide how to best handle your situation. I don’t believe that what has happened to me is going to happen to you in the same way but seeing how their characteristics are so similar from one to another, you just never know for sure.
Hopetoday, One thing we all have in common, is just about everyone that finds this board, is questioning their sanity, their reality and who they are. We are emotionally and mentally drained and devestated. We look different,all ages, we come from all walks of life, shorter or longer relationships, partners, boy or girl friends, men and women,The "details "of our stories may vary, some worse, some sound exactly the same, most heartbreaking is when children are caught up in this nightmare, but we all feel the same pain and devestation of being with a disordered person.This is a real and very serious disorder, the N’s are the ones that have an agenda, they seek out and destroy loving, empathitic human beings, they don’t even know they are doing it, they are like programed robots, that look and act like us, so they can prey on us. Kimco has an agenda, making money, there is nothing she can put in a booklet for you to do that will cure a narcissists, or heal one. Did you down load her guide, she would ask that I please stop saying that I have done what she knows, please stop saying I have. I don’t have to read anything she has written. I know nothing she says would cure narcissism,she is ill informed, and confused and trying to make some money on your suffering and looking for answers. Hope, I did all that research last year,her site has to be fairly new, I looked for help and cures last year, there was none and Sam is not the only one to say that. with all the time I had into my relationship, do you think that was the answer I was looking for? I did not want to believe the no cure, but I sat here for months with mine questioning and trying to get through to him, I did not want to accept this at all, maybe they are wrong about this,all those years had to mean something, they didn’t hope, that is how horrible this disorder is, you don’t mean anything. I finally had to accept that so I could start taking care of me. You have to accept that you can not help him, you have to help yourself. You are not abandoning him or throwing him away, he does not think anything is wrong with him, thats how the disorder works, he will find someone else to put up with him, please give up this hope, and start thinking about and taking care of yourself. You have to go on, you deserve a normal life, you deserve someone to love you for who you are. There is hope for you there is none for him. hugs mamolie
Hi All, I’m Kim’s (kimco’s) husband Steve. There has been so much posted so far.
If you are someone who would like to hear some hope from someone who has left NPD behind him, please go to my blog.
http://www.narcissismsupport.com/Back_from_the_Looking_Glass/Steves_Blog/Steves_Blog.html
Most importantly, if someone is in regular and repeated danger, well there is no guide on earth that will help in a hurry. There are also very few professional opinions that will help either. A woman in danger needs a cavalry and resources to escape any imminent danger. Kim’s guide has a large emphasis on this. Kim knows how difficult that can be, and so the guide certainly helps with the how to build your support network to stay with him, or to leave him. Leaving isn’t always simple and that is why Kim wrote this guide.
I feel like I am at the beginning of a 5000 piece jigsaw puzzle. I know it won’t be quick and easy, the pieces are small and many pieces unrelated to each other, but I know we can end up somewhere constructive.
I’m from a place where many of us have a healthy disrespect for health professionals. Individual power is primary, Australia is a tough place to survive, it always has been, and our support networks are for the most part, our families. Modern technology has thankfully provided these new forums like this one, that function like families once did.
This topic is also extremely taboo where I come from, and I think we need to agree that the lack of solutions, cures, programs or penalties for NPD is a result of it’s distasteful and undesirable nature. Domestic Violence is also a Police officer’s worst nightmare, so the victim is extra vulnerable because the cavalry are reluctant to intervene.
I would like to say that I am now in ‘protecting Kim’ mode. She guessed she would cop some criticism on this forum, and for now I think it is my turn to share our story.
I respect those who have suffered in their marriage longer than Kim and I have (i.e. 14 years,12 bad). I can’t imagine the pain that these people must be in. The old N in me would have said ‘it’s your own fault’ and ‘it’s not my problem!- unless of course you have plenty of NSupply for me, then I’m interested’. But I do respect you now, as a human being, and I can give you my story and I hope you find it is as valuable as the many professional opinions piled in front of me.
The N is an expert liar and illusionist. Many people on this list are mad about this, and feel hurt that they have been lied to. It’s absolutely natural to be hurt and ticked off. So two things here now.
1- Ask yourself why did you fall for it? (There’s nothing loaded in that, btw, just ask it and answer honestly, we’re all different!)
2- How will you respond now? You CAN blame him. You CAN choose to remain a victim. You CAN decide to try something new, and perhaps something even a little uncomfortable.
So my story is this. Kim expertly and patiently built a support network (the cavalry) of people and professionals including the police force around her because she KNEW SHE COULDN’T deal with this N (me) alone. Was this easy for her? NO WAY. Did it make me sit up and take note? OH YEAH! Was I able to sweet talk some of the cavalry into thinking I was a great guy? Yes I was, but not all of them- because Kim prepared them. Her guide details her approach that worked for her, it is built on the advice of these many professionals.
I will continue to assert that NPD is a developmental problem first, and a medical condition second. I know that when I was behaving with N tendencies, I was like a child. The problem was I was a child in an adult’s body. I could earn a living, drive a car, win friends and influence people, but I hadn’t grown up. This was true of me in hundreds of ways, including aggressive temper tantrums, violent outburtsts, ridculing and bullying, and being selfish and self-centered.
The work of Gordon Neufeld Ph.D. and Gabor Mate M.D., highlighted in their co-authored book, ‘Hold on to your kids- Why parents need to matter more than peers’ is based around attachment theory. If you haven’t read this book, here is a very quick description.-
Each person on the earth is born seeking attachment. Naturally it is first to our mother, and then our father, grandparents, etc etc. This primary attachment needs to grow in strength and relevance over the course of one’s life. When we lose that attachment, we will look to anything else to attach to. Like a duckling will follow anything that moves if it loses it’s mother. Dr Neufeld describes a loss in that first healthy attachment as becoming an ‘attachment void’.
I believe this ‘attachmnet void’ is the root of a N’s disorder. Whether he is ‘full blown’ or ‘displaying tendencies’. A void that needs filling.
This is part science, but mostly common sense, I urge you to read the book if you can.
So an N leaves his partner with an ‘attachment void’ too. Who wants to attach to a cold-hearted liar?
Kim filled that void for me, but she didn’t rush in claiming to have the answer. She just did it, and more importantly, she chose to do it. That meant a great deal to me. She still needed to have the cavalry ready behind her first, because I was violently opposed to looking at myself. Why? Because I was a child! And the rest of the world thought I was alright, didn’t they?
Each person is responsible for their own actions, so why not act with conviction and try something new? Trying new things makes us stronger.
Please take the time to read Kim’s blog today at http://www.narcissismsupport.com
She won’t be posting here anymore as she wants to put her time into building our blog as a safe place, where women can hold onto hope, while being supported with the challenges of saying no to abuse and protecting themselves. I hope you will visit her there. I hope also that if you still have some hope in your heart you may view her blog as a safe place to go for support.
I have to say unconditionally that I am very lucky to have Kim. Our relationship looked shakey for years but we pulled through, because we both grew. We’re both different now. She is still a little angry at the behavior of the past, but I can choose how to act now, and she can choose how to respond. We’re in it together, minus the dysfunction, but on guard to the outer world that brings us new challenges every day. Kim exposed herself here and took a risk. Crirticism was unavoidable. I think that you might take time to really let what she is saying in her guide and blogs sink in. If you want things to get better I know that she can help. I think she is very brave.
Steve.
WARNING
There is no way we can verify or prove anyone’s identity on the Internet.
We have no way of knowing if “Steve” exists, or even whether there is a
Steve at all (which I, for one, tend to strongly doubt).
For all we know, “Kim” (if that’s her real name) wrote this post.
For all we know, there is no “Kim” at all and this whole exercise (including
the blog) is a trap set by a narcissistic psychopath to lure victims.
This definitely is my view based on 11 years of experience with identical
scams.
BEWARE!
Identities on the Internet cannot be established. Anyone can say he or she
are someone else and there is no way to prove or disprove it.
SCAM ALERT.
Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: “steveco” npd-cpt6202@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 3:20 AM
Subject: Re: [npd] ANY ONE READ OR SEEN THIS???
Steve and Kim,
I think if your booklet was about educating men and women about abuse, all the kinds of abuse, the emotional torture and crazy making abuse of a narcissists, then that would be a good thing. Everyone needs more information about that, the booklet will not help cure or heal a narcissists. That is where you mislead and are ill informed, maybe we have more information available about narcissistic personality disorder here in the good old U.S.A. You can't call in the calvery for the mind torture a narcissists puts you through, most women can't even explain what is wrong. Not many narcissists are physically abusive, the most damage comes from slow mental torture. Pick one, domestic violence, educating women about abuse or educating everyone about the reality of this disorder that there is no cure for. Although we all feel weak from our experience, whether it is ordinary domestic abuse or narcissistic abuse, we are all very strong, courages and brave to have even made it through it, or live with it. Narcissists see a strong, courages, brave woman or man as a great challange to destroy, thats what they do and are happy to do it.So I suggest you pick one of the above and do some good, research and make sure you know everything there is to know, before putting out a booklet, implying you can cure your N, if you do what she did.
I find it despicable that she brings up in her blog another desperate topic "autisism" on a site about curing narcissists and speaking about autistic kids going back to school with no symptoms at all. Quote, When these women's kids got better do you know what everyone said? That they were never autistic to start with! Can you think of a more desperate group of people than the parents of an autistic child, searching for answers and hope. We are learning more about that everyday, but I have not heard about a cure for that either, that would also get world wide attention. If you want to help people that is nobel, but research and know what you are talking about. Don't prey on suffering people. mamolie
One more thing steveco and kimco
This sure sounds like you on an autisism blog in Feb 2006
PPS:Comments on this blog welcome always
but please don't post saying you disagree with the methods used to "cure "our daughter. They worked, that's all I care about. and don't write saying anything that the head master's therories of child development are wrong. He has cured many children and there are many parents who are extremely grateful for what he has done. I'll give details of some of the other success stories in future blogs. Did you ever write that book? Odd you bring up the autisism and children on your narcissism cure site. Same tactic on your narcissim site no negative comments, they will be removed, we want it to be a safe place. I find it odd that the bloger on autisism is Steve Coville, is that you steveco? What are the odds of that? hope you will remove yourselves from this site! We are all here for support and help in recovering, we don't need anyone else to add to our pain or take advantage of us.
Sam ,you are right scam alert!!!!!
Hi there,
SAM
We’re a couple and our photos of us ‘real’ people with our real stories are here at our blog,
http://www.narcissismsupport.com/Back_from_the_Looking_Glass/Welcome.html
Kim writes her posts and Steve writes Steve’s.
MAMOLIE
Our assertion is maybe a little different to your opinions about and experience with Narcissism. A N will prey on others, but in the situation where a relationship is established, a power inbalance becomes the real problem. The victims feeling of helplessness in this situation is what needs to be cured.
We’ve repeatedly stated in these posts and in Kim’s guide that this will take time and is not going to be easy, but we honestly feel that our story has merit and will be relevant to a great many people.
Women trapped in domestic violence need to be helped out of the situation, and N’s need to grow up and become an adult- they can and they must or they will face the consequences.
Mamolie, in you post above you wrote “Narcissists see a strong, courages(sic), brave woman or man as a great challange to destroy, thats what they do and are happy to do it.”
I say that is what you and Sam are trying to to do Kim.
Thanks to all of you who are asking the right questions.
Peace,
Steve.
Mamolie,
will you please retract your last comment.
My name is Steve Cooper, the entry you cut and paste in your last post has nothing to do with Kim or I and I hope that you can move forward from this.
This is going nowhere fast and that is why we have sarted our own blog page at
http://www.narcissismsupport.com/Back_from_the_Looking_Glass/Welcome.html
Peace,
Steve
WOW, I just read this all! I have not been able to get online becasue of traveling, etc.
I am so confused!!!
That is all I have to say right now.
I can see all sides. truly.
I can’t sit here one more minute and not say something. To suggest that Mamolie is narcissist and abusive??? How ludicrous!! It’s ridiculous what is being suggested here. Mamolie has done nothing on this board but help so many people and encourage them tremendously, me included. I would dare say that those of us here who have truly delt with a TRUE narcissist knows what Mamolie is saying to be the real deal. And excuse me, but I do think for myself. Also, to suggest that we worship Sam or depend on him soley to help us? We’re not that blind. Most of us, I’d dare say, have our own opinions of Sam not discussed in the boards. But when you have children with a narcissist who are being abused every day, you pull in all of the resources you can to get attention to this and get people to take notice as soon as possible. They are the innocent ones who can’t fight this or walk away like we can as adults. This is the last comment I have on this. Mamolie in NO WAY deserves to be attacked here.
oh my god…come on people!
There are NO absolutes in the world! Jeeze…the idea that narcissism can never be improved or ‘cured’ or whatever the hell you want to call it and that no one should ever speak of such a thing or suggest such a thing ever…is this a forum where ideas are exchanged or is this some kind of religious cult that has to be practiced a certain way according to certain rules and standards and no one must ever question the dogma…ever. This does sound narcissitic to me and I’m sick of it. There are no two people exactly alike in this world. There just is not! There is no behavior, narcissism or any other behavior, good or bad, under the sun that is so cookie cutter that you can label it and then predict with 100% accuracy the outcome, affects and results for that person throughout their life span. It’s just not possible! There is obviously a certain amount of 'self selection" you see on a website like this where people are talking about narcissim. By definition, you have got a heavey cohort of people that have seen the worst case scenario and that is why they have found their way here. There’s a whole world of people out there that have no idea this website even exists, who may have someone in their life with narcissitic traits, but it’s not as bad as what ends up here so you never hear from them here! There’s millions and milions of people today tackling all sort of realtionship issues, including a tendancy toward some narcissistic traits, that while difficult may not rise to the level that would lead them to a site like this, or like my bf he was one of the few that sought help and is better. You don’t typically hear from people like that here, not becasue they don’t exist but becasue they are busy living their lives and so are not here. My bf probably falls somewhere in the middle in terms of n traits… And yet over and over again I see people innocently suggesting or looking for hope on this site getting into a pissing match because it can not be suggested on this site that someone w/ narcissism maybe can get better…the dogma on this site is that NO one with narcissim can ever get better. It’s like a mantra, it’s like a code, it’s like you don’t belong to the club if you don’t repeat the mantra. Mr. Vaknin describes himself as having been diagnosed with full blown narcissistic personality disorder, and yet because he writes about it on the web he has developed this loyal following of women (and men) who feel they have been horribly abused by people with full blown narcissitic personality disorder, and yet they are asking him to go on Oprah to help them and are defending his contention that narcissim can never be addressed or helped in any way? HELLO??? Doesn’t that seem just a little bit ODD??? What is going on here? Women abused by narcisstic men are looking to a narcissitic man to save them? This does NOT feel healthy. This feels rigid and bizzare and I have NO IDEA WHY MR. VANKIN IS BEING WORSHIPPED IN THIS WAY on this site. There is NOTHING wrong with people talking about the idea of healing a psychological disorder or getting better. Mamolie does not speak for the entire population and while she may be the expert of her experience, she is not the expert for everyone elses experience. The message here is that healing must not be discussed or suggested becasue unsuspecting women are going to be dupped into believeing it and be further hurt or victimized. Oh my god! Can we not think for ourselves? Mamolie, I’m sorry but what are you doing? Do you work for Sam? You are quoting how narcissists will prey on anyone and manipulate and enjoy every bit of it…but blindly follow Sam? Are we all beholden to worship Sam becasue of his ability to describe and market his first hand knowledge of what comes down to abusive behavior? This is absurd! Do we not posses critical thinking skills? I can’t do this anymore…I don’t know for sure who Kim or Steve are, but I sure as heck don’t feel any more comfortable blindly adopting Mr. Vankins line of thinking 100% than I do Kim & Steve’s line or anyone elses for that matter! but I am allowed to be curious about Kim and STeve and they should be allowed to discuss their ideas on this site. Kim and Steve can’t HURT ME, Mr. Vankin can’t hurt me, my bf can’t hurt me, becasue I have a responsiblity to think and determine what is best for ME and to use my brain to think for myself. That is MY responsibility. The dogma that absolutely no discussion of healing or improvement can be discussed on this website is opressive and STUPID. I find the idea we cannot discuss something here like healing just as oppresive as when the narcissistic people in my life stubbornly refuse to consider ANY idea or agenda other than their own. I’m done with this. I can’t do this anymore…This is unhealthy. This is the 3rd time I’ve seen people bullied off this site for the mere suggestion that someone w/ narcisssim can be improved. The only one who has the most to gain from that idea as far as I can determin is Mr. V himself. Kim is accused of selling false hope while Mr. Vankin get’s worshipped for selling fear? Twenty years from now when he’s exhausted this line of thinking, he’ll probably switch gears and be selling the cure for narcissism himself,as he is the expert. This is ridiculous. THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES IN THE WORLD. If reading about an idea that suggests there’s hope…just READING about it…is so threatening that it cannot be tolerated…then I think I have learned all I need to know about this condition called narcissism from this site. I thank everyone who has shared so much with me on this site and for all the feedback and information I’ve found here…there has been some truly informative and thought provoking moments here and I really feel close to a lot of people on this site. But this just seems so unhealthy, I’m weary of the victimhood, I’m weary of the depressing and macabre line of thinking, and more than anything I’m weary of the dogma…that if you have have been through hell then god damn it everyone else is destined to go through hell too. I think it’s time to say goodbye to all this and that I wish everyone here peace and healing. When there can no longer be a free exchange of ideas,especially ideas about something positive like the idea that ‘healing’ might be possible for some, not a promise but just the idea that it might be possible…that is my cue that something is very very wrong here. It is never wrong to consider healing a possibility. It is never wrong to think for yourself. Considering the idea that some people might get better, regardless of the ailment, NEVER victimized anyone. Best to all of you. Sue
smg
Thanks for saying what I was feeling! A hug for you from all of us here!
Your strength and valor will serve you well.
You’re very welcome at our blog, anytime.
http://www.narcissismsupport.com/
Steve
Yes thank you Sue, I do agree! Unhealthy indeed…
I have stayed out of this argument intentionally as I wanted to walk the talk and not engage or be sucked into arguing with people who are dismissive of others points of view, and obviously abusive. Once apon a time I would have fallen for it hook line and sinker, but not now.
I have been in touch with my network and hopefully we might start seeing a bit more healthy and open minded discussion on this subject online rather than all of the fear peddelling. As Steve keeps saying “Call in the Calvalry” - He knows what that means because I sure did that with him when things were bad! It was the domestic violence officer at my local police station, who I now consider a friend, who first warned me that a lot of what they say on line about narcissism isn’t true. He should know, he has worked in the front line in this area for many many years. Our city is a very insular industrial town that had it’s major manufacturers (BHP) close down just over 5 years ago leaving a majority of it’s citizens unemployed when it was already a place with a big class divide. We have been in the National news in Australia as “Fight Town” and in fact have world champion fight title holders that came off our cities streets. What I am saying is that Peter Amadio (My friend with the police) was not living in any illusion when he dared to give me hope and tell me NOT to listen to Sam and some of the local women who were running local support who had become very bitter. He also directed me to the social workers who taught me about fill in parenting.
I would like to include some of the letter that I sent to Mamolie’s private mail box after her mailing me asking if I had a heart. This was BEFORE her joining with Sam to bully me in the above entries.
I wrote -
"I hear that you are angry and I do understand why. And I think that you have jumped to a number of conclusions about what my message is without looking into it. It of course is normal for you to have a reactive emotional response if you think that someone is taking advantage of these women who you feel quite protective of. I hope that you might reasses that response however. I had no intention of upsetting you and I think if you look more deeply into it you might find that my advice and guide is highly researched and that I have support and recomendations from many professionals who work daily in this field, including our local domestic violence officer who has helped thousands of women over his many years of service with the police. He is also an active feminist!
I AM saying that there is hope but I am NOT saying that women should tolerate abuse.
The action plan in my guide is very clear. The only way that an N is going to have any hope of getting better is if you completely protect yourself from his aggression and you cannot do that on your own. I am calling women to give up their fantasy that things will get better by themselves and to take firm and decsisive action and to get protection and assistance.
Take care, I DO know how bad a problem this is, my father was a GP and I grew up working in my family’s medical practice. I am not naive about life or care giving and I am responsible and commited to this cause.
You obviously have a load of experience and a big heart and I would prefer you on my side than against me! If not I hope that you can at least agree to not be disgreeable just because we disagree…"
I had no response to this except her public insistance that I am a scammer?
There are pictures of Steve and I on our blog! Is this a story I would make up?
I thank you so much Sue. I am not asking anyone to side with me but definately to side with freedom of speech and respect for each others opinions, especially on a site such as this where so many come wounded in spirit and possibly as a last resort.
I have had emails from women who have bought my book and left Sam’s list after him abusing me there. Their sentiments were similar to yours Sue.
I call on my brothers and sisters! Come out and speak if you feel compelled and don’t be afraid. United we are strong and it is time to stop feeling guilty that it is somehow our fault that others put us down and mistreat us. I am calling for your support as an example of what to do in your own life. Please each of you call on the support of your local network when you are feeling self possessed and composed, don’t wait until you are in despair. Use your intuition and research skills wisely and don’t ask for help from those that will only disempower you. Get guidance and tell the right people what is happenning to you in your life. You don’t need to feel ashamed. You need to call in your brothers and sisters and all of the angels in heaven to stand by you, because you are going to need them!
Yesterday, I wrote I was so confused!!! Sue put into words what I was confused about and what I was trying to say before! Remember going back to my very first posts before I even found Kimco’s site?
I had multiple posts asking for help to find a cure or to stop it.
Then when I found Kim’s site, I though … finally, let’s see what all these woman who have been through it think.
I am still confused.
i am sorry, but sam, I have not liked you for day 1. have you have all this insight but won’t help yourself. That to me is a scam and a copeout. But I do thank you for giving advice and sharing what it is liek to be you. I just think you make the choice to not work and change and help others get better becasue it would be too hard.
You want and like all these women changing and catering to the N’s and say they can never change and then you sympathize with them.
I have told you many times that I think you should use all of your brains and insight for healing not excuses.
yes, I still may be in magacal thinking… maybe I am going to be like that woman in the book THE ONE. I stay with my N until i can’t take it anymore and walk out the door after I learn my lessons.
My N is coming here for the first time in weeks and he has been playing MAJOR MIND GAMES with me and reversing and projecting all his crap onto me and saying I do it to him.
Well, I have read what Kimco wrote about 3 or 4 times! Not word for word but a few key parts that I feel I can grasp and work on at the moment. i have seen a few MINOR changes in him. I SAY MINOR. I am not thinking I am going to cure him and nor do I think he will be saved becasue of me… but that is not waht Kim says.
I think he is realizing I am not playing his game anymore and everyday I learn a new way to break free. I still reverted back to my swearing but calmed myself and only did it once instead of for an hour.
So… with this, I would like to say… what IF, what if my N is so hurt inside and needs someone to trust liek she says and … will change slowly on his own.
NOW, I ask Kimco this all the time… and she has answered my question and I loved her point of view on it and I am thinking about it and how and what and why I feel the way I do. I am not saying I am her, I am taking HER perspective and just thinking about it…
I personally think she stayed too long but then when I look at what she has now… if she has that deep down real true empathetic love and has a happpiness we all long for, why not?
I also think that there are very few N’s or people who are willing to be int he spot Kimco and Steveco are in. BECASUE most run!
NOW, I am not saying that every woman here could have changed her N, we all know that people only do what they want and can…
I just wanted this discussion to be about what if’s and look at what they did and beleive Kimco and stevco and say… WOW. A FIRST! Now what!
And before the autism thing came up on this bored, I called my friend and brought that up.
Jenny said everyone said NO HOPE. she did not buy that and look where she is now! He son is revocered, not cured!
But is living and is happy and she fights to let all the people know about it.
My journal yesterday was becasue I was sad people were bashing each other. Everyone is different and ever person is different … why can’t we come together and come up with a soliution and compare our situations and say well this did not work and this did … so now what/
what if we are the first group of women and men that can make a real difference??? Are we going to screw this up becasue we are all too stuck in our sitations?
Hi everyone,
Being new to this I can’t believe what I am reading. WOW! There is a lot of heated feelings going on here. I thought the reason for this SUPPORT site was just that. SUPPORT!!! Thank God we have each other!!
Everyone just needs to calm down, stop pointing fingers, allow everyone to their own views and SUPPORT each other no matter what their view. I certainly am not trying to say my way is the best. I thought that giving my opinion was what we were supposed to do so that we could hear someone else’s ides and consider other methods of dealing with issues and then make a decision to agree or disagree. It is ok to agree to disagree without attacking each other. Everyone needs to do for themselves. Only you know what is good for YOU!!
May peace find us all,
Joyce/Photomems