Are all narcissists evil?

Narcissistic personality disorder
#1

You know, I’ve been thinking today about my N and all of the lies that he has continued to tell, even after he left. I found out that he has an over 1000.00 vandalism charge hanging over his head-I have no idea what he’s done now and I don’t want to know. But after he left, he told people that I had been over to his ex wife’s house, threatened her, broken her door in, funny to think that I could even be that strong after having had a stroke, just all of the lies and all of his actions, and all of his twisted ways and twisted thinking, it makes me angry and sad at the same time.

Its been three months now since he left. The indictment over molesting my daughter is coming up soon now-they never let you know when. I still grieve, as crazy as that sounds. But I’m also getting my life back in little pieces. Between his constant lying, alcoholism and then what he did to my daughter…its still almost incomprehensible, even to me and I was there! I didn’t know then that he was an N but I did after my therapist helped me to understand it. I did say to myself that it always felt like he always just out of my reach no matter what I did. Now I understand why. Its still a hard process for me. I am going to a divorce care class and that’s helping. Funny thing, there are 3 other women in there with N’s. I think its going to take me a very very long time to recover from all of the damage that he did to me and to my family.

#2

I do believe they are capable of being evil, whatever you consider “evil.” They are extremely self-centered. They also are extremely vindictive and will stop at nothing. They lie for their own cause. They demean, devalue, humiliate, and punish. They hate you, “Just because…they are envious of you, they don’t like your look, they are better than you, they don’t like your family, they don’t like…,” Whatever they conjuer up in their mind. Does that equate “evil?” To me it does. And if my ex-husband violated my child the way the man in your life did, you bet that I would call that EVIL. Think of him? The only way I would think of him is how to get that man away from my child. I don’t like sounding harsh, but please get a grip at what that man has done to your daughter, and get a grip of who you are and what you deserve. He is most definately EVIL.

#3

I think to an extent, they are ALL evil in their own way. Lacking the ability to empathise can really turn someone completely evil. Being as self-centered and uncaring as they are, they are also largely incapable of true love- which is the center of happiness, life, all that is good-which is the opposite of evil. When you take love out of someone’s life completely it is very easy for evil then to seep in and infect someone’s soul. While sometimes it is easier to take the approach that these people are victims of a disorder which caused them to stop maturing or growing up emotionally at a young age. The truth is that they ARE adults in age, which makes their actions painful and sometimes, as in your case possibly, unforgiveable. When I start allowing my husband to “get in my head” as I call it, it helps me to think that he is just a child with an identity crisis who hates HIMSELF right now and he is misdirecting onto me. It helps in the moment to think of him that way, but it doesn’t take away the distaste I have later when I realize that I DO have to hold him accountable as an adult. It is difficult to wrap my head around. Whenever he says " I’m gonna kill you." jokingly to me I simply reply- good then they will put you away so you can’t hurt anyone else. He is confused and usually makes several more comments, but it allows me to block it out by truly taking the blame off of myself. I can’t save him. He can only be saved by himself.

Anyway, I got a little off topic, but you are right in thinking that it is evil. He and other N’s are evil in their hearts because they can’t love instead.

#4

whats your working definition of evil?

what difference does it make to us if they are or arent?

  • if youre asking if I feel more moral, ethical and have values compared to my exN/S the answer is yes, but I’m not without some measure of evil in my heart, and he’s not without some measure of good in his.

maybe a better question is if he is immoral?

yes yes and more yes

#5

And, Phoenix, forgive me, but in my estimation, for all that has been done to me, my ex is definately EVIL, and for the man who did what he did to his daughter, what on Earth would you call that? Immoral is just too “un-evil.”

#6

Mariel Lee, no forgiveness needed ! I’m always up for discussion.

I used to think he was evil. Coincidentally its when I wanted retribution…vengence, and I was justified. It was when I had evil in my heart too.

The thing about my ex is he is just as much a sociopath as he is a narcissist so much of his thinking is not only to get supply, but he prides himself on conning people, on physical violence with people, on manipulating people out of money. I remember early on in our relationship he told me how much fun it was going to be for him to corrupt me. When I saw him last during a couple dates after we’d broken up, he told me with pride about how he intends to have future clients take justice into their own hands while evading the law. I could go on and on…my point is MY ex gets a LOT of pleasure from now being In the system of authority he has wanted to subvert his entire life, and somehow have his fingers in hurting people. He likes hurting people. He’s sadistic. Even down to wrestling and playing with my son when we were together, it wasnt fun unless my kid was crying out, and he was laughing.

Now you could probably make an argument that sadism is evil, its joy, pleasure, the rush of inflicting pain on others. Thats my guy.

You could also make an argument that a wholesale rejection of law, authority, rules, the 10 commandments (ohy yes he was also VERY interested in doing everything OPPOSITE to what the Bible prescribed) is evil.

So I wouldnt argue with you about him having evil in his heart.

But as I already said, I have some evil in mine. My heart was filled with murderous rage. Directed at him. I think there may still be a little hang ove rof that but not much. My desire to make someone hurt wasnt directed at most of the world though, just him, but it was evil inside me none the less. Am I evill to then?

or human?

I consider myself a moral person. I controlled my impulses because stronger than them, is the desire to respect other human beings boundaries, the law and my own freedom and clear conscience.

He didnt hold himself back while he was with me, he just held the truth from me so I didnt know. One day I might tell you exactly what he did to ME that I wasnt aware of until after we’d broken up, then you might understand why I wanted him dead.

Was Tony Soprano evil? in some ways he was worse than my partner in terms of the chaos, pain and blood-sucking…but much better than my partner in how he loved his children, and felt some need to protect ALL children - my ex hates children, espeically ones that get the comfort, support and unconditional love he never got.

Cuz I’m not sure what an evil person is. I know what an evil deed is. I know what evil impulses are. But “evil person” sounds so complete, and I can tell you, DESPITE what he did to me thats unforgivable, reprehensible, and if theres a God theres a price for him to pay - I dont know that I can say he is an evil person…only because there were moments when I saw goodness in him, and not when it served him for me to see it.

I dont really know about this question. I dont know what purpose it serves any of us to think in this way except to draw a sline between us in the sand, and remind ourselves why we’re good people, or better people, or more moral people.

Is it because, like me, none of us can exact the revenge we feel we’re owed, in order to bring balance, so we want to believe in the end, theyre all going to Hell?

Cuz I dont know that I believe in Hell, but I know if there is one, my ex is going there given what I KNOW he’s done, let alone what he never let me find out.

#7

Phoenix, I get chills reading your response. You are right that perhaps it is unfair to write someone off as wholey evil. We are only human ourselves and are therefore susceptable to the devil's temptation. I guess the division between good and evil occurs in the choices we make. No one person will always make the moral (or non-evil) choice because that would make that person either a god or lacking of free will- i.e. a slave to God (which goes against my beliefs, but perhaps not everyone's) Then we are left to assume that everyone acts in the favor of evil 'sometimes'. This issue is even greyer than that though because a healthy person may choose to give into temptation because he/she sees some selfish benefit in it, whereas an N may give into evils that do not even tempt the normal healthy person, nor do they bring them anything other than hurting others. So then the selfish motive in those deeds is simply the sadistic pleasure of hurting others or living outside the norms of society or even breaking the law. I would label those deeds as "evil" as well, but the sadism behind them makes them difficult to relate to. I think that our attempts at labeling them perhaps are attempts to comrehend the thoughts that drive the N. I know I am constantly battling to understand 'what just happened' when I experience the 'evil' first hand as it is dealt from my NH. Removing myself from the situation and taking a step beck in order to realize that I am not really "bad" or "worthless" or whatever message is being said, is necessary, but then I am constantly stuck trying to comprehend what happened in terms of: "If I'm not bad, then my NH just doesn't love me" or "then my NH is bad or 'evil'"

Maybe I am off, but it seems to lessen the pain when I appropriate the blame off me. To take a step outside of the tornado that is life with a N, some reorganization of thoughts is definitely necessary. In fact, that is exactly what I spend my time with with my counselor: organizing all my distorted 'victim' thoughts into rational reality, which is not easy and unfortunately involves acknowledging that while I do the best I can to be a 'good person' most of the time, he does not most of the time. He only really cares about himself. I think that once I practice looking at the relationship in such a way more often I can live with less guilt and blame and it won't consume me so much. Then I will be ready to leave. As long as 'everything is my fault' and 'it is my responsibility to make this relationship work' and ' it is my responsibility to make him better' then I will be stuck.

#8

As long as 'everything is my fault' and 'it is my responsibility to make this relationship work' and ' it is my responsibility to make him better' then I will be stuck.

That last line really struck me so I would add to that:

As long as I entertained that MAYBE SOME of it is my fault, and that it was SOME of my responsibility to make the RELATIONSHIP better I was stuck.

 

I'm not sure what it has to do with the evil question, but I wholly get what youre saying here ...and I suspect most everyone else on this forum does too.  It wasnt codependence that kept me hanging on in the agony for so long...it was love, commitment, hope and EXACTLY what you said so eloquently here.

#9

I have this urge to add to this, from my own personal experience…
I’m not certain that everything we saw was fake or constructed in order to win us over. I know thats the prevailing wisdom but I dont know if I buy it.

I fell in love, DEEPLY in love with someone who was open about his want and need to leave behind his dark former life and become legitimate in his own estimation, not society’s. I watched him a few times during those years struggle with the two forces in him, the need to be a bad guy, and the desire to be a good one, to be thought of as a good one, to take his place in his family of doctors, lawyers, diplomats and political activists (a family of do-gooders). The need to fit in with cultured sophisticated and powerful connected well-to-do people, and the need to run in the gutter with the low lifes.

I’m not attracted to bad guys, organized criminals, drug dealers, violent offenders, wife abusers, thieves, conmen or low lifes. I’m not attracted to liars, users or takers. But I AM attracted to people LIKE me, those who have a shadow self but who choose, who WANT, who NEED to have a clear conscience, who have values and integrity, who are winners who came from behind, people who constantly challenge themselves to be better today than they were yesterday, people who dont give up, people who celebrate their own strength and the strength of others.

And I sincerely dont believe all of that, that he showed me in the first year we were together in loads was fake or constructed for my benefit, because I watched him struggle with being that kind of person off and on throughout the 7 years we were together.

I’m not attracted to evil, are you?

There was something there, something good, something sparkling, soemthing I sincerely felt was on its way, under its own steam, into the sunlight, claiming its place in his life.

(tearful now)

I just think, the other side, is too strong in him, its been in control for too much of his life, and he’s always losing the battle against it.

I dont know what of any value that is to this discussion, I just feel very sad when I think about the goodness I loved, and wanted back so badly while I hung on…slipping through his fingers.

#10

http://www.careplace.com/picture/34435?u=15351

for all of us in the pain, or finding our way out of it

#11

Phoenix, I agree with you whole-heartedly that there is a struggle. Sometimes I can actually see it occurring within him. When he is facing a tough decision, I’ve seen him battle which side to go to and I get disappointed when he chooses to do evil, but he didn’t and still doesn’t always choose it. It is what keeps me hoping that he will become that good person all the time. It makes my heart ache, like a disappointed mother when her child chooses to cheat on a test in school. You know they know better, but they chose to do wrong. I feel like that more and more often when he slings insults in the face of a kind gesture, or when he sneaks to decieve me to buy things he knows we can’t afford, or when he sneaks to meet women on the internet, or… the list goes on.

The reoccurance of things that I used to find unbelieveably appalling has dulled them to mere disappointing facts now. (Like when he threatens to kill me because I didn’t cook him his pancakes just right- AND thinks it is helarious later) It makes me a little sad to see the changes in me. My sister, who I haven’t seen in 2 years (since I met my N) said I look emotionally frazzled and I have a blank stare in my eyes- like I am just too tired to feel much of anything like excitment or joy. I feel it somewhat, but it was a little scary to hear her say that because she would not make anything like that up. I don’t know where I was going with this post. It feels good to vent it a little. I am sorry if it comes out a little scatter-brained.

#12

I’m not sure what to tell you Anna, the part of me thats strong and willful and a warrior would either have hightailed it out of your husband’s presence, or gotten in his face and told him if he touched me, he’d be dead. Nobody gets to threaten my life, even if its a joke.

So my blood gets a little boiling when I read that he does that to you.

But its your life, and your heart, and your nervous system, and your timing of when enough is enough.

But I would hazard a guess youre looking tired and worn down to your sister because youre taking those kinds of verbal abuse “hits” and any abused woman looks haggard after awhile. I know I did.

Do you look at yourself in the mirror, or take photos of yourself and see how youre dying a slow death? even if its an emotional or spiritual one?

Nature gave us a life, I am pretty sure its meant to be lived with some enthusiasm.

How are you going to get yours? your enthusiasm…and YOUR LIFE?

#13

by the way

that inner striuggle within my exN/S, is none of my business now. In fact I would be happy if I never got whiff of it ever again. It can be some other woman’s worry and concern. My life has regained its preciousness to me, and once I recognized his losing battles were “cancerous” or “poisonous” to me (and to him too, our relationship was no picnic for him either having a warrior for a partner) its easier to not have hope that he’ll be the good person he wants to be, or that things will get better, or that one day he might have the compassion and empathy that he’ll recognize my pain at always bering given the short end of the stick, and honour and value me instead.

I dont want to be honoured or valued by cancer…or by poison.

Know what I mean?

Let him have some other woman with whom he can try and work out his demons.

He got a share of my life to do that with (7 years). he doesnt get any more.

Its like having had cancer…I dont ever intend to get it again.

I hope the day you start administering your own brand of “surgery” and “chemo” comes sooner rather than later. it would be so nice to read your posts in the coming months or year that you’re in “treatment”, or “remission”.

Life’s so short yanno? and some diseases shorten it.

#14

I honestly don’t know now. I was getting it from planning my escape. I had the whole thing planned and thought I even had the guts to go, then we went on a trip to visit our families and I saw waaaay more of the loving, good-natured, sweet, friendl guy than I normally do. It made my head spin a little bit. I didn’t think he could be completely human like that for so long. I see genuine love in him for his family and I think some part of me is ‘waiting’ for him to feel that for me too. It is so sad. I feel haggard. I know I look haggard. I look at pictures of myself 2-3 years ago and I looked 22-23 (which I was) and now I see pictures that were taken of me just a few months ago I look at least 30 and worn out. I even have trouble making friends now, which I have never had in my entire life. The ones I do make are only friends with me to exploit me. It seems like I have “use me or stay away” stamped on my forehead.
Anyway, I don’t know when it will be enough. I don’t know when to throw in the towel. Lately I’ve been wondering “what’s the use”? I’ve been so downtrodden that it is hard to see the purpose in changing the situation. I am sure my mind will change again, but I just feel like I’m in a rut. I can’t see up from down.

#15

and you are so right. The thinking patterns are cancerous. They eat us from the inside out. So when we look haggard to people outside, imagine what we would look like if you could see our emotional “self” on the inside. I do hope to heal, but I just don’t think I have the strength.
He did say he was going to leave me the other day and I cried- A LOT, but I got to a point of numbness that I didn’t care either way whether he stayed or left, and that was the moment that he decided that he would stay. With me- all cried out, haggard, numb, stunned, and still stuck.

I want that moment of clarity so bad. I have to get back to the place where I felt like I deserved more than this again.

#16

Hello all, I am in the middle of a divorce and in the middle of facing this man down in court on the child molestation charges and yet stll I grieve over the loss of the relationship. Is that crazy or what? I know that I need to stop “trying to get inside his head” and worry about my children and myself. I don’t think I’ve ever experienced this kind of hurt before. I found out that the day after he left, he was on the internet looking at the dating websites. I feel kind of like a car that he was looking to replace. His NS definitely ran out here with me. It feels like its going to take me a long time to recover from this. I am going to a divorcecare group and its helping. Guess what? There are 3 other women in there divorcing their own NPDs. I am having more and more “good days” but I am still having some days when all I can do it cry and be sad about everything. It seems like there are so many losses in my situation. The loss of what I THOUGHT he was, plans, dreams, companionship-even though it a very distant kind of companionship. I understand that I am going through a grieving process but that understanding doesn’t make it any easier. I have to learn not to try and figure him out anymore. My divorcecare leader keeps telling us all that we have to find a way to forgive our ex’s. Forgiving him for molesting my daughter is something that I think is a long way off. I know that forgiveness if part of the healing process but what a thing to forgive someone for!!! If I ever am able to forgive him, it will be because I did it for my sake and not his. I know that they are sick. I am still finding out more and more lies that he has told. Its much harder to forgive someone when they are still stabbing you in the back. I think that for me at least, recovery is going to be a process and not a short one at that. Its made even harder for me that the holidays are coming up. I just feel so sad and lonely and betrayed sometimes. Thanks for listening.

#17

Its much harder to forgive someone when they are still stabbing you in the back.

 

I can hear your pain. I have felt similar pain.  I think you are on the right track. When you grieve it is ok to think anything that comes to mind and especially healthy to let it out that way you can hear yourself saying things and identify the truth from the lies. I battle with the same thing. It is really good that you are going to the divorcecare group- especially with other patners of Ns. They will be able to understand what that inner tug a war feels like. It is hard to relate if you haven't felt it. It seems so cut and dry to some people on the outside- He hurts you and is bad to you= you leave him and never look back. It is so much more complicated than that when he's been spinning a web in your head for so many years. You get caught up in all those false beliefs you had about him and who he was/could be. I am sorry you are going through it, but you are doing everything right. If you can't forgive today then that is fine. You may look at it as a healthy step in the right direction since you have probably 'forgiven' him time and again in the past for the times he has hurt you. You WILL get there. Keep talking here and in your group and hold onto those good days.  

#18

I think ambivalent feelings are par for the course. I know that doesnt help you feel any better. I dont think there IS anything that can make any of us feel better. We have to feel what we feel. We have to keep getting out of bed everyday, and doing something constructive with our lives. We have to keep drawing in breath even though our chests hurt with grief and a broken heart. Its the only way to get from here to there.

Coming to CP didnt help me feel any better. Nothing could. All it did, and all therapy and friends and reading and crying did was help it from getting any worse, it helped me hang on while things ever so slowly got better.

But I can tell you 2 years out of the most painful relationships of my life, I still feel some of the biggest love of my life. And the T’s can tell me till theyre blue in the face that really what I love is myself because theyre all the qualities that live in me that I believed were in him, that he mirrored to me…blah blah blah…but at least for now I still feel love. Not what I used to, not enough to miss him, not enough to wonder about him, certainly not enough to want him showing up in my email or voicemail or doorstep. But what can I say, I still love every love in my life (the professor I had a relationship with as a university student, my exhusband, and yes even my ex-sociopath). A kind of attachment I cant explain, like something my heart will never forget, a feeling thats part of my history and part of my identity now.

And certainly he doesnt deserve to have me feel that way about him (especially if I force myself to remember what he did to me), but willing it away never worked, therapizing it away doesnt work (although my EMDR T swears she can make it go away - but I’m not ready for that yet).

But yanno what? I cut myself some slack, because having a heart that loves for real, with commitment, with some kind of energy that lasts over time – EVEN IF ITS FOR SOMETHING OR SOMEONE THAT WAS A HOLOGRAM AND NOT AUTHENTIC – is what I’ve got. This is the heart I’ve got. I can still choose to forgive or not, hate him or not, hermetically seal my life off from him, or not…this will always be the heart I’ve got. So I’m stuck with my feelings, they change on their own, I have never been very successful at changing them through sheer will alone. I can only love myself as well, and make loving choices for myself, the quality of my physical, emotional and financial life, my safety…my sanity.

I can feel whatever this love is for him…and still reject him, and choose me and my child over everything else.

And so can you.

#19

Evil is not a word I use very much, think it is how you personally percieve what is evil. Using the definition of evil, what N's "do" can be interpreted as evil, but saying the"person" is evil, in my case I can not apply it to my H. If I went through what mariel has, I may agree that he is evil. N's may not not know or be aware of what they are doing but many times though ,there is intent to hurt and punish you. The devastations to another human being can certainly feel and look evil when it is being done to you.

That said, my personal definition of evil would be, child molesters, they are beyond sick, it is down right evil to destroy a defenseless child. Don't know how old your daughter is, but I hope she is getting all the help that is available for her. You need to focus and work on yourself so you can help and be there for your daughter and get your lives back together as normally as possible for her sake.

 Being an N does not necessarily make him evil, being a child molester does.          

                          Hugs mamolie

 

#20

I think they, just as we, make choices every day to choose to do good or to do evil. Their moral compasses go haywire and they tend to choose evil more often than most people. They still have the free will to kick the devil out of their lives, but they choose not to every day.