Can Lobotomy cause NPD or Psychopathy?

Narcissistic personality disorder
#1

Here is some of the more interesting stuff I dug up in relation to http://www.careplace.com/forum/topic/6790 (NOT to be read at mealtimes it is ICKY stuff)):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy (lots of gore and history)
http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n02/historia/lobotomy.htm (lots of gore and history by Sabbatini, the frontrunner in the neurology of psychopathy - significantly no suggestion that it causes NPD or psychoathy)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article729403.ece?token=null&offset=0 (a lot about the after effects of lobotomy and some medical melodramatics IHMO to spice it up)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5014080 (Howard Dully’s account of his lobotomy and the surgeon who performed it)

Interesting reading, because while there is no suggestion of lobotomy inducing psychopathy and NPD, the opposite if anything, I was surprised to see evidence that, at the time, as well as the families trying to subdue “inconvenient” relatives, there is evidence that, at some period people clamoured for some of the more refined forms themselves, at least partly because of the way the operation was packaged and marketed.

I was utterly horrified to discover that lobotomy is (only) still legal in Britain, albeit on a limited scale.

GD

#2

Well Sam,

It seems to be a shot at some kind of World title for consecutive links, prefaced by a “cut and paste” from an old article, but at least you went for the right “look”…

So, I have a serious question for you that I would really like an answer to:

When you use the expression “the narcissist” what exactly do you mean by it?

I also have a more general question, but I think it calls for a new thread of it’s own:

http://www.careplace.com/forum/topic/6816

GD

#3

Blitzen,

Are you sure it isn’t a spambot? It operates like one, and is about as accurate. I’ve seen some that work better that could almost make you think they were a part of the conversation. If I wanted to increase my page rank and get my links out to as many places as possible in a short amount of time, I’d certainly be using one.

#4

It’s not a spambot - it’s a Sambot (laughing)

Clearly you haven’t bothered to read the articles I referred you to. Phineas
Gage had a brain injury (which imitated the effects of a lobotomy).

Later, he was diagnosed with the narcissistic and other personality
disorders. Isn’t that what you posted about???

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “wastedyouth” npd-cpt6799@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Can Lobotomy cause NPD or Psychopathy?

#5

Oh, that sounds like something I’m interested in. My SO suffers from minor left temporal lobe problems, a lot of which results in seisure like activity. Some of the people she’s been talking to lately have had such severe seisures that they have had major lobectomies.

I heard a story of a man who had severe problems with perversions which later in life had further symptoms of siesure resulting in a lobectomy. The perversions went away along with the siesures. I’ve read a few stories about epilepsy patients being more empathetic after the procedure and having their sex drives increased. I’m not reading much about it causing any form of psychopathy, but I have done next to no research on the subject. I don’t really know the difference between a lobotmy and a lobectomy, either. In the case of this man, what seemed to be a problem with psychopathy turned out to be epilepsy related.

Its probably not politically correct to give lobotomys these days, but if they hapen to have eplipsy problems there’s plenty of research being done in that area. Lobectomy’s seem to be quite common. I guess I’ll start readin up on it.

#6

Ah,

An “-ecotmy” is the cutting out of something
An “-ostomy” is cutting a hole in something
An “-otomy” mean to slice it up.

So a lobectomy is a removal, and a lobotmy is like jabbing and icepick in there and chopping it up?

#7

Temporal Lobe Epilepsy Supervening on Longstanding Transvestism and Fetishism

A Case Report

R. HUNTER11The National Hospital, Queen Square and Maida Vale Hospital, London (England), VALENTINE LOGUE11The National Hospital, Queen Square and Maida Vale Hospital, London (England) and W. H. MCMENEMY11The National Hospital, Queen Square and Maida Vale Hospital, London (England)1The National Hospital, Queen Square and Maida Vale Hospital, London (England)
SUMMARY

The case of a 39-years old left-handed man is reported who exhibited transvestite and fetishist behaviour from the age of 9 on, and 20 years later developed temporal lobe epilepsy which gradually became severe. Investigation revealed a left anterior temporal focus and he was treated by anterior temporal lobectomy. Since then he has remained fit-free for 15 months and has lost his perversion. The neuro-psychiatric relations of the two conditions are discussed and a possible connection between them is traced.

#8

Well Wasted Youth,

I don’t have much choice but accept that Sam has a right to participate if he wishes to. Nobody has to pay him any attention, and if everything he has to say begins “http://” and ends with “html” I doubt if anybody will.

GD

#9

Hi WY,

In your first paragraph you answered a question I didn’t actually ask that was BUGGING ME…

I KNEW that it really isn’t as simple as “lobotomy, otherwise known as leukotomy” since I was 12, and that there are specific terms for specific procedures, not least one term for separating the frontal lobes crosswise and another for longwise…but because somebody put “lobotomy, otherwise known as leukotomy” out on the internet and people picked it up, it would take more digging than I have time for today to pin that down and define it…

Actually, I was vaguely wondering if I had IMAGINED that there were other procedures. :o)

Very relieved to see I hadn’t…

Also DELIGHTED to see more, new information appearing. I have a personal interest inm lobotomy etc because I rather suspect that it may have been one of the TRUTHFUL answers to what my mother wanted me to be when I grew up (“lobotomised” - and I ain’t kidding…I may have only escaped by inches too).

You are giving us a WHOLE different side to the story.

You certainly made me think!

GD

#10

Brain Trauma and Personality Disorders

http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders39.html

Narcissists, Medication, and Chemical Imbalances

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq70.html

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “wastedyouth” npd-cpt6799@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Can Lobotomy cause NPD or Psychopathy?

#11

Yah, its been making me think, too =) My SO is taking medication that is also been known to treat bi-polar and schizophrenia on rare occassions. Some of the medications these people are on cause extreme issues with rage and anger. I haven't had time myself to research any of it, but I'm wondering what use an epipepsy medication has for schizophrenics and bi-polars.

Here's an interesting study:

Brain potentials implicate temporal lobe abnormalities in criminal psychopaths

http://www.nrc-iol.org/cores/ccnlab/publications/kiehl_et_al_nn_021104.pdf

"Further support for the hypothesis of abnormal medial and anterior lateral temporal lobe function in psychopathy comes from behavioral studies in patients with temporal lobe epilepsy.

There is some evidence that suggests patients with temporal lobe epilepsy have a high incidence of psychopathic-like behavior"

I don't believe they do lobectomies to rid people of psychopathic behaviors, but they do do it if you're siesures are severe enough.  If you have epilepsy you get a neurologist, and not a psycologist.  They will map out your brain, locate the abnormal brainwaves, and remove it.  I'm wondering if its a trend that the psychopatic tendencies go away with the sections that cause siesures.

Anyways, I find the brain fascinating.  My SO has opened me up to neurology and brainwaves.  Her left temporal lobe is abnormal in that is filled with delta waves.  Thankfully, despite all the lobe problems, she's not psychopathic at all.  =)   

 

 

 

 

#12

I can remember something from the late 60s, early 70s suggesting a link between psychopathy and epilepsy…

I can’t remember what or where, but it was impressive enough to become a part of my worldview.

GD

#13

Don’t have time to say much but this is an interesting article. In one place the guy discusses that temporal lobe epilesy has frequently been misdiagnosed as schizophrenia because behavioral symptoms are the same. Other stuff in there too how neurological disorders are being misdiagnosed as psychiatric

http://internationalbrain.org/news.php?dep=3&page=3&list=10

#14

Sam,

Can you do something please?

If you are going to contribute links to these discussions could you put a brief summary, at least, of how they relate to the specific discussion?

Something you may not realise is that when you do post links, without even a brief personal, and current, summary of their relevance, not only do people suspect they have been posted by an automated SAMbot, they also don’t have the faintest idea whether you might have said something that is worth their time or not, I doubt if either works “for” you.

Thank You
GD

#15

As opposed to inulting spambots everywhere, I’d prefer to just call him Spam Vaknin.

I don’t mind the links either, really, just wish we could see something new. It’s a lot more interesting when people contribute to the converation as opposed to promiting the same old ideas.

It reminds me of my ex a bit. There was a time she was got herself in this online fix and kept repeating the same blanket statement over and over trying to convince people she wasn’t really so cold. She did it because she had someone else write the statement for her, and wasn’t capable of carrying on a conversation without revealing her obvious problems.

#16

Later, he was diagnosed with the narcissistic and other personality
disorders. Isn’t that what you posted about???

Actually Sam,

I’m not sure he was diagnosed with anything as such.

Here’s Sabbatini:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040708090901/http://www.epub.org.br/cm/n02/historia/phineas.htm

Deakin University:
http://www.deakin.edu.au/hbs/GAGEPAGE/
http://www.deakin.edu.au/hmnbs/psychology/gagepage/Pgstory.php

Specifically related to lobotomy:
http://www.deakin.edu.au/hmnbs/psychology/gagepage/PgLobot.php

So anyway, what do you think of the idea that NPD could be replicated by some form of frontal lobotomy?

GD

#17

What WY,

Do you mean like John Malkovich in “Dangerous Liaisons” rising to the challenge of dumping Michelle Pfeffier without saying anything but “It is beyond my control”?

:o)

That must have gotten OLD in a hurry.

For everyone…

Is it concise enough to print on a sweatshirt?

GD

#18

I already told Blitxen about having an uncle who was committed into one of those cuckoo nest’s. As a child, I went frequently with my mother to visit her brother in the state hospital. He didn’t get a lobotomy, but he got that thorazine (horrid drug), and he got the shook treatments. And of course I got to see everybody around him and the doctors and nurses. He was delusional went he went in, schizophrenic was his diagnosis but my husband (who was always right when it came to such things, said it was teritary sphysillis) Anyway, my uncle was the sweetest man, oh he could sing and claimed to have sung with Bing Crosby. Just on another planet. When they finished with him, he couldn’t feed himself, just a few inches from being a vegatable.

OMG - it was horrible. And the craziest ones in there were the doctors and staff. Like Dr. Frankenstein’s lab - the patients were guinea pigs. Talk about messing with people’s minds!!

I was stupid in my statement that lobotamies cause NPD, rather it should have been that they learned from the lobotamies much much that personality disorders were about damage/abnormal frontal lobe.

I’ll try and find this article I read back a bit talking about this. I really did not make it up.

#19

Why yes, it would fit on a tshirt, but it wouldn’t ever be as cool as something John Malcovich said. Sometimes I think the most abusive part of that relationship was being deprived of intelligent conversation. I suppose the the tshirt would say, “But I"m above the law.”

#20

No research supports the contention that narcissists are more intelligent
than the average.

BUT

The narcissist naturally gravitates towards those professions which
guarantee the abundant and uninterrupted provision of Narcissistic Supply.
He seeks to interact with people from a position of authority, advantage, or
superiority. He thus elicits their automatic admiration, adulation, and
affirmation – or, failing that, their fear and obedience.

Several vocations meet these requirements: teaching, the clergy, show
business, corporate management, the medical professions, the military, law
enforcement agencies, politics, and sports. It is safe to predict that
narcissists would be over-represented in these occupations.

The cerebral narcissist is likely to emphasize his intellectual prowess and
accomplishments (real and imaginary) in an attempt to solicit supply from
awe-struck students, devoted parishioners, admiring voters, obsequious
subordinates, or dependent patients. His somatic counterpart derives his
sense of self-worth from body building, athletic achievements, tests of
resilience or endurance, and sexual conquests.

The narcissistic medical doctor or mental health professional and his
patients, the narcissistic guide, teacher, or mentor and his students, the
narcissistic leader, guru, pundit, or psychic and his followers or admirers,
and the narcissistic business tycoon, boss, or employer and his underlings –
all are instances of Pathological Narcissistic Spaces.

Narcissistic abuse in the workplace and narcissism of authority figures -
click on the links:

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq81.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal79.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq11.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/15.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq19.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal73.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq47.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal70.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal52.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal48.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/corporatenarcissism.html

http://healthyplace.com/Communities/personality_disorders/site/Transcripts/narcissism_workplace.htm

http://www.suite101.com/bulletin.cfm/6514/10621

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/pp114.html

http://www.tipsofallsorts.com/bully.html

http://open-site.org/Society/Issues/Violence_and_Abuse/Workplace/

http://www.nypress.com/16/7/news&columns/feature.cfm

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/npd.htm

http://www.freepint.com/issues/240703.htm

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal45.html

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/bbing/stories/s1158704.htm

http://www.freepint.com/issues/260505.htm

http://alaskaclubs.fitdv.com/new/articles/article.html?artid=640

Take care.

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “NPDrevisisted” npd-cpt6799@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Can Lobotomy cause NPD or Psychopathy?