DraKim, and me, too

Hey all –

I’ve got a couple of things i’d like to comments on regarding our mutual loss of DraKim, and some of the things I think lead quickly enough to the departure of narcissists who come here looking for help.

First, Kim made the remark that much of what she’s struggling with is learned behavior. And there have been lots of supportive messages backing up her idea. Others had a different opinion – namely that NPD is systemic, personality-wide, and that it’s not possible to promote change in someone with “full-blown” NPD. Some people, they say, merely have “narcissistic traits,” and might therefore be reached. Kim sent me a message before she left remarking that her inbox was full of messages attempting to correct her, to justify alternative conclusions, and to Kim some of them seemed spiteful. Nasty. And she left.

Kim’s embroiled in the pursuit of her Ph.D in forensic psychology. She might’ve been a real resource to us! More the pity then that Kim’s disordered personality would rather give up on and cut off sources of conflict (read “people”) than waste any time on debate. It offers her no supply at all, and so will not be pursued… It’s her loss, of course, but that doesn’t make it any less discouraging. It illustrates why our prognosis is so poor.

And what of it? What of our poor prognosis, people? This might come as a surprise to all of you, but Kim and I had one important factor in common on the day we entered this forum on Careplace called “Narcissistic Personality Disorder…” we both thought it was a place for people with NPD to discuss the disease of character that has brought each of us to so low a spot. But it’s not that. Is it?

See, i don’t see anyone on here talking about living through the dream of NPD…I only see people arguing about whether or not the N. in their lives should be held responsible for their actions, or if it’s impossible to communicate with them and the lady involved should run instead. And THAT debate is the only one that seems to matter here. It’s important, that service – people need somewhere to go.

So don’t think too harshly of Kim. She just thought she’d find people with NPD here. I don’t think she was ready to hear all the gorey details of what life with us is like, or didn’t care about that either way. Who knows. For me, it was effective to listen to how behaviors indistinguishable from my own created the nightmare of our common lives. That’s how I’m getting healthy. But it’s not because this is the NPD board.

It’s not.

This is the “my-lover-has-npd-and-I’m-miserable board.”

Which is all I’ve got. It’s all Kim had, too. Maybe she’ll come back and listen. Try to remember that there are N.'s lurking and reading. I lurked and read for fifteen minutes before I wrote my own story. Remember that it’s not just about YOU when you write. You’re on a message board. You’re trying to relate to others and allow them to relate to you. Don’t tell N.'s that there’s no hope for them. Don’t imply that because YOU haven’t seen it happen, it never does, or never will. Here I am, people – sick sick sick and telling you it’s working for me. Why not accept a hopeful message?

Tim

BTDT,

No, boss. Please, just leave the asskicking where it stands.

Truth is, I’m genuinely committed to making our lives here in my home better. In order to believe that all isn’t lost, I HAVE to commit to the idea that your conclusions are wrong.

I’m not attacking you. Stop attacking me. You ran Kim off because you could, because you think it’s funny to close N.'s down and it gives you some sense of retributive power over them. Now YOU get to be the strong one. You took away her toys and ran her off.

I have no place else to go. And neither does she.

So I guess if you can’t try to be caring, maybe you should try SpitePlace.

T

Oh Boy! I don’t like the way this is going.

NarcissistBroken, I think it’s common for the people here to be hostile toward Narcissists. We’re trying to work it out just like you and I’m sorry you’re receiving the the brunt of this. I appreciate your posts because it helps me to understand, and understanding helps in my healing process. I hope that you continue to post your feelings and I will continue to offer support. I’m routing for you because if you can do it maybe some day my Ex will. I probably won’t be there to see it but that’s OK. It’s not like I want to leave, honestly I don’t. But he’s not telling me that I should stay or that he wants to change. Hes’ not at all like you and I commend you for the effort. This is not easy for any of us.

Tim,

I probably need to clarify some of my statements. Psychology offers no help for NPD. This is a matter of fact if one takes time to read their own journals and the position of the APA on the subject. Therapy is rarely successful. Sure some will take money and treat – we live in a capitalistic society. When there is no success, they will blame the narcissist for not wanting to change. I think that a scam and it galls me. If you went to a medical doctor for treatment of a problem, he provided some long term treatments which did not work, and he then told you the reason was because you did not want to change, most of us would leave that doctor and never go back, and possibly considering suing for recovery of the bills he charged. I think it very reasonable statement that there is no help in the area of psychologists and people should be leary of any that say they can. That is derogatory towards psychologists, not NPDs.

As far as psychiatrists, the medications they have do seem to help some of personality disorders (ignoring the side affects and other problems they can cause), but nothing does much of anything for a NPD. Some such as the SSRIs can make things worse. As I mentioned, there are problems with glucose metabolism. SSRI’s affect this and will lower blood sugar. But you know what, go find a psychiatrist who knows this. They do not. SSRIs can help the BPD but throws the NPD into worse rages (duh). The lack of help one will find from a psychiatrist is not derogatory towards the NPD, it rather is a derogatory towards the psychiatric profession.

NPD is not really a medical term for neurologists. They are going to look at various physical problems for some identifiable pathology. They are not at this point, addressing problems of the sort that NPDs present with until the deterioration is too severe and little can be done. And that happens as NPDs age.

Endocrinologists may actually be worth some effort for hormonal tests. And another place to look for help is in the alternative areas who have been focusing on metabolism for decades as the cause of mental disorders. The same can be done with diet changes and supplementation if gotten right, as is done with many of their meds. There is a whole lot more I could say on that but not now.

BTDT,

Thanks. You’ve acknowledged none of what I wrote, and surely the conversation will move off in some inane direction having nothing to do with the topic. You’ve responded to my best attempt to open dialog about the topic I chose with a completely unreflective retort. I swear, you sound like…me. Are you a narcissist, too?

Group –

I don’t know why a hopeful message has to be so roundly attacked, but I guess if the idea is that there’s no hope, I’ll go grease myself this afternoon. What the fuck is caring about THIS face of Careplace?

T

Hello Tim,
Thank you for your post. Fair point(s). I am glad you are here, i was not at first!!! I did not under any circumstances what to come into contact with any one even slightly showing traits of NPD again, and I have not until now sent you a message or remarked on any of your posts, but you and DRKIM have helped me a great deal, it is an understanding of this disorder that I am looking for and on this site I am finding it.
Regards T

Taylor,

Thanks for the support. I really do appreciate your contribution, as well. There’s hope for us both, and for everyone awake enough to be typing here or reading here or being supportive here. Seek first to console, ALL you Careplace people, and not to tell everyone the story YOU need to hear in order to stay sane. Care for others. You’ll probably find (as I’m finding) that it somehow mends your own life as well.

Tim

Tim, I did not address Drkim’s leaving the board because I think she answered the question quite well as to how get rid of a narcissist - slight their feelings and they take their toys and go home.

Nor did I address the aspects of your comments that the board should be appropriately focused so to be on egg shells not to offend the narcissists feelings.

Do you really want me to?

Tim, I came on here looking for anyone who could understand what I had been through, the confusion I lived with my N, I could not even explain. I needed to know that, I, myself was not insane. I found that it is a shared experience, the same confusion, different details but we all have the exact feelings from living with an N. There definitely is something to that. It is like we all caught the same flu, same symptoms, recover time different for each of us. Not much help because no one could see the damage the flu did to us. There is no public awareness or flu shot we could line up for. We are left to suffer, not knowing the damage was from the flu we had. This is not about boyfriend, girlfriend, this is about a rare strain of flu we all caught, validate our symptoms and damage and how to move on with that damage.Without this forum, we would still be questioning our sanity. This forum have validated my life and gives me back more of my sanity and strenght every day. I am glad that you have had an awakeing, but you can not dimish the suffering that we have all been through from our experience with an N. I said once before, your suffering is not worse than ours. It may be equal. I am sorry this is happening to any of us, but it is and we all should be allowed to express how we feel, the victims of an N, it is the only way we can begin to move on.

 I was surprised as new people came on that they actually had NPD, I thought that this should have two forums, one for us and one for you to share your thought and feelings. Every other site is divided into seperate forums, those with kids, partners,there are degrees of suffering and the understanding you get from those groups. We are all winging it, we are all in the dark, the information is just not where it needs to be for us all to get help. I do feel bad for Kim, that she could not share freely in another forum. There are more victims that need to express their pain and feelings than there are Ns waking up.We are all suffering in one way or another, we don't have clear minds or clear realities. I told you, to start another group to help and support each other in your journey, I am not saying you should not participate in this one, but you can not get mad or upset about what is being said, they are the raw feelings of hurt people. I for one, want to be able to express my feeling about what I went through without wondering if I am going to offend an N. I HAVE LIVED MY WHOLE LIFE THAT WAY. This is the only place I can talk about it, no one in my life understands nor would some people belive me, if I tried to tell them, he is not what they see. I live a lie, everywhere I go, because, my N is a fraud and an actor.He will never have an awakening, that is one tragic fact for me. I debated putting my picure up, and decided to, this is the only place I CAN BE ME and talk openly about me and my experience. Your cause would be more noble and sincere if you started that group and worked with each other in your journey to recover. There are others on here who have no one to turn to or talk to. We are all trying our best to understand what happened and move on from it. Your input is valuable here also, but there are others that need your help also. just my thoughts. Hugs mamolie

Thanks, SMG –

My mind is already made up, and I’m gonna tenaciously cling to the only thing that helps. I’m not going anywhere. Thank you bunches for taking the time to lend a little support, and to remind us all of what’s important here. Including me.

Tim

Mamolie,

I just read your post, and it just makes me sad. I expected a more balanced approach from you. Til now, I’ve thought of you as a supporter of the presence of people with NPD – and as a supporter of mine personally. I talk to Rachel about what you say.

My contribution here is legitimate, and I’m not leaving. My life is better for it, and if i leave it isn’t going to be because BTDT attaches rambling unrelated attacks on me in strings I start. It’s not going to be because you feel compelled to get on and mother us all through, choosing your favorites and lending your support-- or witholding it. I care if you get involved with me or not – both of you have written things that aided me. It’s not up to you to attack me out of the forum. Don’t reply to strings i start if you think it’s not worth it to dialog with a narcissist trying to wake up.

Who have I hurt or misled out there on this forum? Who have I misused or what lie have I told? Why are you doing this, BTDT?

Tim

Wow… lots has happened since yesterday. Look, I don’t know even a fraction of what all of you seem to know about this crazy affliction, but I do know how I feel when I have to deal with an N. I concentrate on that most of the time and in the interim, I try to UNDERSTAND as much as I can to help me deal with this in a logical way, rather than just emotionally.

I feel unfulfilled when dealing with narcissists and I constantly try to be whatever they need me to be so that they will move closer. This happened with my father, former husband and ex- boyfriend. All three scenarios different, yet strangely similar. Whatever the cause of their affliction, I don’t know and no one else does either. All I know is that I am programmed to provide supply to those who need it and they gravitate toward me in an almost instinctive way. Scary? Yes, very.

I have spent thousands in therapy to figure out how to relate to my ex-husband. My sister and son also spent thousands and yet the person (my ex husband) who should be sitting on the couch refuses to see that HE is part of the problem. I know that I am more enlightened because of my experiences, but my fear is that i will go right into the next relationship and follow the same path. I am trying with all of my power to ensure that that does NOT happen again.

As for Kim and NB, both of you scare me a lot because I can feel myself falling into my comfortable place and wanting to provide you with supply and support your efforts to learn, but Mamolie is right. This is the only place where I can be myself and I should not play those stupid games. And I don’t want to worry about offending anyone, which is how I always feel when dealing with people in general… it is always about them and their feelings over my own.

Right now I feel mad… mad that I fell in love with two different NARCISSISTS, leaving me frustrated and unfulfilled much of the time. Feeling controlled and manipulated and trying so hard to be whatever the hell it is he wants me to be, but knowing in my heart that I am reaching for an impossibility. Still, I refuse to DEMONIZE the N’s in my life. It is not about them… this is about ME, for once in my life.

Tim
once again I AM NOT TELLING YOU TO LEAVE THIS FORUM, I am telling you that there are others on here just like you that have no one to talk to and for some reason, you take that as a leave here. Why are you not concerned about them and their struggle. WHY DO YOU NOT CARE TO HAVE A DIALOG WITH THEM AND HELP EACH OTHER. WHY ARE YOU OFFENDED THAT I SUGGEST THIS TO YOU. Please answer that for me, why do you find a suggestion of another forum for you guys to talk so offensive ? Yes this Careplace, we all need care but for different reasons. You can not have a debate with people who are suferring the affects of living with an N. People who have been drained of their empathy and did not take care of them selves, to take care of their N. We are dealing with what happened, we have to take care of ourselves first, that is important to our recovery. We neglected ourselves for so long. When our minds are clear and we feel stronger, yes debate it, You are showing your N side here ,Tim, you are only looking at from your side, think about it, There are two sides to this, our suffering and yours, We are all trying to find ourselves. It is hard enought dealing with my own feelings, don’t make me or anyone else feel bad for having them. We appreciate your input, but you are expecting special treatment. What is it you think we should all be saying. What is this forum suppose to be or about? Please explain what you want or expect from everyone? Hug mamolie

Thanks. I sure appreciate your honest assessment. I haven’t asked you for anything, though – and certainly nothing which would equal making you a source of supply. I’m getting really discouraged here. Why is it that you belong here but we don’t? This if the NPD board – not JUST the friends and survivors of people with NPD board.

I am sorry to see Kim go, I hope she considers returning, as I was curious to learn more about her situation. TIM, PLEASE STAY. I want you to stay becasue I want to learn from you and to hear about how things are going for you and to better understand how your mind works and I want to see you get better because it gives me hope, all very selfish reasons…in a sense, I want to USE you…which is what most Narcissists are accused of doing…so there’s a little of my own narcissism showing. Let’s keep in mind that their are millions in the world today that would consider each and every one of us “narcissists” as we sit here in our comfy homes with our expensive laptops with enough time and disposable income that we can even debate this issue at all!!! Folks, there is some serious serious forms of mental illness in our world! The results can be horrendous for the patient and horrendous for the loved ones. I totally hear what Mamolie is saying…to know you are dealing w/ something but not able to get any support or understanding for years…I cannot imagine the nightmare she has been through, and I thank god she has finally come to a place where at least it is starting to make sense…that there is truly an explanation or reason for the pain she went through. I stick to my assertion that everything is a matter of degree and lies on a continuum. It is truly upsetting how confusing all of this is and how little is truly known by the ‘professionals’. I had a breast cancer scare this year…I wanted the experts in the medical profession to give me a clear diagnosis and a clear message on what I should do to protect my life. Three different, higly trained Oncologists gave me 3 completely different options/opinions as to what I should do. In the end, I had to do as much research as I could on my own and make a decsion FOR MYSELF. It all comes down to personal decsisions and personal responsibility. It’s not just the field of psych…and yes, the pill pushing annoys me too and the pharmaceutical industry is a sham. People ARE ALL UNIQUE. Every situtation is unique. The variety of behaviors we see and talk about on this site have as many variations as their are stars in the sky. This is what I hope everyone can continue to embrace and understand…that my experience is not necessarily the same exact expereince as yours, and yours is not necessarily the same exact experience as the next person. There are similarities, yes, but that does not make it a carbon copy. By not holding out ANY HOPE…we are not just “hurting the feelings of the N” that may be reading…we are hurting those who do love and care for these people and we are ultimately hurting ourselves. There is always HOPE. There is hope for ANYONE serious about getting better…the fact that they are serious about getting better TELLS ME THERE IS HOPE. How can someone imply there is no hope for someone diagnosed with NPD? What if the diagnosis were wrong? Since most of the professionals seem to not know what the f is going on anyway, the likelihood of misdiagnosis would be great. I’m done quibling over “cure” versus “modified behavior” or whatever… if it helps the person and those who associate w/ them live a decent, more fulfilling life, I’m all for it. There is HOPE for those who want to learn and grow and change, and there is hope for those who have been emotionally devestated in their interactions w/ loved ones who carry these traits. There is hope for all of us. We enrich ourselves by keeping our minds open and seeking and sharing information from each other. Tim, I hope you stay and continue to contribute as much as you can; I consider you an invaluable resource.

You know, it’s SICK — sick, people. When you make it clear that I won’t be allowed to explore my own issues in my own life and IN MY OWN AUTHORED STRINGS because my “N. side is showing,” or because you take it upon yourselves to interfere with my growth.

And when you succeed in not allowing me to even explore my own issues in my own strings, you’ll use me as a some absurd example of how to deal with narcissists. How to deal with narcsissists that might crop up later – narcissists coming to the NPD board for help. Where else were they supposed to go? Why do THEY need to go, when this is the board designed for them? So long as everyone can count on the champions here, the narcissists this board was designed to help don’t have a shot.

I have not been attacking you. I feel you did attack me, even in your last post. I’ll take responsibility for my actions, but not your reaction, nor Kim’s. I did not attack her, I disagreed with her and criticized psychology. I guess possibly she took that personally - she really did not express exactly what it was. I do not know what went to her mail box directly because I sent her nothing there. You apparently do so be a bit more honest as to why she left. She made her decision as to that resolution, she took her own toys, she checked herself out. That is actually a typical behavior in NPD related to the instinctive fight or flight response when there are conflicts of some sort.

Now I really do not have a problem with you or kim. I am happy that you are here. I think it great that you are doing all you can to deal with the problem. But I say mine try repeatedly to get a grip on it. I know in his heart he wanted his family, he wanted life to be good, and people to love and respect him. And I know that nothing he did helped. The first few years were actually very turbulent, of course there are days, weeks of next to no sleep. Than great improvement came when he finished med school and got into a healthier routine. The physical violence stopped though he was still difficult. Then in his late 40’s, something snapped and from thereon, there was horrid degeneration until his death, both emotionally and physically. And he was just crazy as a loon by that time. You have no idea the heartbreak and sadness for me who knew him when he was young, strong, so driven. I loved him very much and still do.

We went to therapists, we went to doctors. You do not understand, our life was academic medicine - where the best are. My family doctor understands completely what we all went through. He understands the personality problems we dealt with and did all he could to help. He had a couple of other patients. The answers are just not there. That does not mean there is not an answer. I just would look in other places for them away from conventional medicine and psychology which is too driven by money right now. If you do not understand what is meant by alternative, I’ll explain further.

BDTD–

Thanks for the message. I appreciate the less aggressive tone…easier to listen to. I guess it’s clear in my own heart that your experience has made you a real resource here – we all need to listen to people as articulate as you explore out in the open what for some is inexpressible for a variety of reasons. We’re lucky to have you. Kim, the forensic psychologist and overwrought narcissist didn’t stand a chance with you, though. You have your shotgun full of logic and you blow holes through all the work she had done, relying on the very thing you won’t let anyone explore without telling them how hopeless it is. And shit, maybe it is.

Or maybe your husband was on one end of the continuum and couldn’t be saved by therapy or intervention or some sort of psychological break. But that doesn’t mean that everyone will go mad in their 40’s and degenerate thereafter til death releases everyone from Daddy’s nightmare. Re-read your posts, and see if anywhere you allow for alternative outcomes. Not the alternative treatments you offer as though implying hope…but alternative outcomes.

Your message does not include anything hopeful. I’ve been trying to tell you and everyone that there must be SOME kind of hope, because here I am, awake and dealing with the consequences every time I wake up in the morning. Here I am on the Careplace board designed to include me, revealing all my secrets and trying to get in charge of my life. You can’t deny that there is hope for me just because there was no hope for him.

There’s hope. Maybe that what YOU came here looking for, too. Look at me, BDTD…I have hope, and it’s ME who has to do the work to change – it’s NOT impossible. It’s NOT lost. I’m up to it. Anyone else?

Tim

I am going to be straight up with you, you have made this all about you and your personal growth, and we are interferring with yours. I don’t know if this just about Kim or something else is going on in your life, that you are throwing a temper tantrum, and demading all the attention. If you want to grow, start being aware of other peoples feelings. No one on here is talking specifically about you, they are sharing their feelings about their partners. Your the N, you have no idea what it is like being on the receiving end. If the stories are stirring something in you, that is your problem to deal with not mine or anyone elses on here. I am sorry if you don’t like reading what we are saying and it makes you feel uncomfortable, try imagining what it actully feels like for that person, it is about them, not you. What about their personal growth, don’t they have the right to express their feelings. This is not a good set up, victims and NPD together, maybe you have a point about a freinds and survivor forum. You can’t expect people whos lives have nearly been destroyed by their N to swith their empathy over to you. We need to give it to ourselves, We need two forums , I am not responsible for your personal growth, I am responsible for my own, this forum allows me to do that by expressing my feelings, something you are not permitted to do when living with an N. You have already invaded my space, I catch myself thinking about you and change some of things I want to say, it is absolutely amazing how you do that and honestly, I don’t like that at all. You have intimidated and brought chaos to this forum and now made it all about you, I am very uncomfortable with that , maybe I don’t belong here, I for one do not want to worry about what I say and your temper tantrums, I already experienced that, no more. I can’t save you, I am trying to save myself. mamolie