Ego Hit for my N Husband

Narcissistic personality disorder
#1

My N (of 7 years, 2 kids later) is looking into the eyes of a layoff soon. He’s finding it a horrible ego hit that "my career choice has not gone as well as I planned it to go when I chose it. In addition to that, he is losing his oldest child by a previous marriage through a custody battle (welcomed, get the child away from him) and meanwhile, he is constantly threatening, yelling and belittling the two we have together. I am extremely protective of them and am on constant alert.

I have been told by the therapist we saw that the children need to learn how their father works and that I shouldn’t try and control the situation, give him some control. Whenever I do, he verbally assaults them and makes them cry. (5yrs and 6yrs). I can not stand for this. Therefore I am constantly bringing it to the table and letting him know that it is not acceptable.

He broke down today telling me that he feels like he has so much on his plate. (Though none of it is anything I can help with.) I just really want him to either snap out of it (which I know he won’t) or get the heck away from us. I know I would never survive shared parenting because of the worry I 'd feel when the kids were with him. I feel truly stuck here until the kids are old enough to learn for themselves… meanwhile, I can’t shelter too much or they will never know.

But I can not stand by and let mole hills continue to be turned into mountains! Does anyone know what I’m going through?

#2

My ex n always told me he loved his mother; more than any other woman ?
Weird…
----- Original Message -----
From: “CRICKET1961” npd-cpt10904@lists.careplace.com
To: mtdonnelly@frontiernet.net
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Ego Hit

#3

Oh YES! However, when my kids were young I did not know that Narcissism (pathological narcissism) existed the way it is. I did not know about personality disorders as such for this disorder because the behaviors (sometimes) are so subtle that you find yourself questioning yourself. When he picked on my sons (particularly my eldest), I first thought that his parenting skills (male influence) were healthy, but what did I know? I grew up without my father in the house; I had only one sister and mom when I was growing up, so I depended on my husband to tow the line with respect to the “male” things. It wasn’t long before I started acting on my impulse to question and respond to his ways. He was always raging. It just wasn’t “normal.” When I left him, I was truly NUMB. I honestly went through the motions. I was with him for 23 years and I was what you would call, “the perfect wife.” However, the perfect wife who lived in quiet desperation. I was starving for everything human. I cry to think that my sons lived the way they did. The only good thing was that he traveled A LOT. There are things that my son is going to therapy over, that I did not realize.

My first suggestion to you is that you and your children go to therapy. I also do believe that your children need to know about this disorder. How old are your children? They need to understand that this is a disorder and that what their dad does is NOT their fault. Both my sons know about their father’s disorder and truly have come to accept it. They believe it to be what it is. My son is working on himself. Remember, the earlier the intervention, the healthier it will be for your children.

You are doing the right thing. Now that you have discovered the problem, you know that your husband is not going to change. You need to make the changes for the positive outcome for your children. They still can have a relationship with him, but with knowledge, all the mind games he may play with your kids will not do the damage it could without the information. Good luck to you. And, whatever you do, don’t hang on to a guy just because you think…, there is a lot of support and information out there for you. Do what is right and healthy for you and your family, you will be happy in the long run.

Mariel Lee

#4

I too know what you are going through, and like Mariel, I had no idea what I was coping with. I dont know if knowldege would have servied me well or not, but I agree with Mariel that if you can get the right intervention it is wise. For me, living perochially in the land where we dont do therapy, it would not have been easy, if even possible, so it is probably just as well I lived in ignorance.

I also have 2 children, who were 12 & 14 when I left. In ways that only N’s can, my H assumed full custody. The eldest, my daughter now 17 has very serious N tendencies, I am praying they do not turn into NPD, but nothing gets through. My son now 15 seems to be developing his own understanding. He is seeing how things are for his sister, and that it is just not normal. he does not speak to e about his dad AT ALL - he likes to keep his world light and bright and positive, and I respet that. recently tho, he has been mentioning some of his fathers and fathers families “achievements” all bogus and overstated by his father of course, and I wonder if he is doing it to gauge my reaction.

The drama for me goes on and on, but as much of it is brought on by my daughter than her father, which makes it double difficult. I am all stressed at the moment, and am presently beating myself up for over-reacting to their latest drama and therefore feeding the beasts so to speak. They are probably talking about what a head case i am right now LOL. There is so much you want to say, but there is just no point. Going off on a rant is something I had so o o o hoped and expected to be past by now, but I am not.

I am sorry that you have had to find your way here. There is nothing easy about this path we are on, pitfalls, landmines, smokescreens, you name it, we have it.

xx

#5

Jaembe…all good adivce given here so far. I’m finishing up my degree in marriage & family therapy; my bf has narcissistc and borderline tendancys. I am working in a traineeship right now to get my supervised hours; it’s an outpatient hospital program where the clients come all day and do lots of intense group therapy, CBT, DBT, and traditional therapy too. I had a talk w/ my supervisor who did 10 years of private practice and now 10 years in this clinical setting w/ serverly mentally disturbed population. We have a lot of depression, bi polar, and people with borderline and narcissistic issues. My own personal counselor that I see, for over a year, made light of the personality disorder traits I was experincing in my bf. This made my first year with him much harder than it had to be. In fact, many private practice folks don’t have a lot of hands on experience with this population (personality disorders). It’s not something you can fully grasp until it’s been in your own face in a big way. Therapist who work intensively with this population, they know what the score is. If doing couples counseling, they still have to treat the ‘relationship’, and not just point to an identified patient, but a savvy therapist who over time realizes someone may be suffering from a mental illness should address that. Those who do not savvy, can actually, I think, make YOUR situation worse for you (unless YOU are savvy) becasue they subtly discount the rabbit hole bizzarness and emotional turmoil of what you and the kids are going through. A therapist might wonder, not knowing the whole picture, not living with you daily, and not having worked with this population…they might wonder if YOU are paranoid or depressed or something. Your therapist made the point that you are going to have to let your kids learn what their father is all about and learn to contend with him. That is true…to a degree. But if your husband was beating them, she would not be saying they need to learn what causes the beatings and learn to deal with it. What she is missing, is the gravity of the emotional impact your N husband is likely to cause you and your children if he is personality disordered. If she truly got the dynamic, I would think she would say something more like; they need to know what there father is all about, BUT, they do not need to be at the mercy of his ever changing moods that result in confusing, degrading, harsh treatment. That is NOT healthy for them. Your gut instincts are correct. Try to protect them as best you can. Don’t deamonize him in front of the kids (your dad’s evil, horrible, ) thats just scary, espeically to a kid. Tell them dad has an emotional problem and cannot always behave the way he should, but it’s not their fault, and then mediate and protect them from the worste of it as best you can. Good luck to you, I know it’s really hard, I feel for your situation… the best thing you can do for yourself and your kids is to keep yourself healthy, grounded and educated.

#6

I kind of rambeled above…but did not get to emphasize, that the supervisor who has now had 20 years of experience, told me that a counselor that has not worked extensively with this population, really just does not get it at all. She goes to meetings and functions within her professional circle all the time, and it never fails to amaze her the level of ivory tower, rarified thinking many therapist engage in that only see typical, neurotic, affluent men and women, once a week, for most of their careers. They don’t get personality disorders and they wouldn’t know one if it bit them on the ass. Spend a couple years in the trenches with this population and you will know all about splitting, projecting, manipulation, temper tantrums, raging, and the vast empty hole that seemingly can never be filled in these people. Get educated and keep grounded; many of us know MUCH more about personlity disorders than the average therapist. Believe it, it’s true.

#7

Wow! Everyone, thank you so much for taking the time to give me some feedback. I have, indeed, given my 5 and 6 yr old kids a tiny insight this week, “Dad has been in a really grumpy mood, and there isn’t anything wrong with you guys… just know that sometimes he may do or say something that isn’t quite normal - and it may even hurt your feelings, but give him hugs and if you are really upset, talk to me about it.” I figured it was safer than saying nothing.

I love how positive my kiddos are - they really keep me going… of course they both have their childhood N issues that they are going through, but I have faith that I’ll pull them through this.

You are all right about therapy and an N personality. It is really difficult. He wants to present the best side of himself, and was in fact, even fired by his previous counselor for lying. Not an easy thing to do - but she was not confortable with dealing with him. The therapist that we currently have has listened to my fears (and my proof - journals as well as various textbooks on the subject that had been tabbed, highlighted and notes of relevance in the margin.) She was AMAZED at just how pinpointed I got with my opinion. Once I did my research, everything fell into place - everything made sense as far as the way he handles everything.

I’ve just recently found that mentioning his issues on a self-conscious level is really a maddening thing for him. Let me explain. Last November his family turned him out… they chose his first child and ex over him for Thanksgiving. This hurt incredibly… I still haven’t recovered from that blatent display of grandious behavior on their behalf. He has subsequently blocked them out. “My parent’s don’t exist anymore, I don’t care about them, it doesn’t bother me.” (as he mopes around the house getting angrier and angrier) I mention that subconsciously he is having trouble with this rejection, he get’s so angry - changes the subject, throws his hands up like a flapping bird, it’s kind of funny to remind him that he is NOT in complete control of everything in his mind.

I just wish I could live my life at ease. I didn’t ask for this, I was suckered into it - and thank my lucky stars that I’ve got two really strong children, emotionally sound and very good hearted. (Also that he travels constantly!!!)

I hope you all don’t mind if I stick around and bounce things off you all for my own sick need for validation! I need to know that I’m not crazy! :slight_smile:

#8

Hey, you bounce any ideas you need. I am not sure how much help I will be because I am still married to my N as well, but all the people here have been very supportive and helpful to me through some really tough spots and battling about whether or not to leave. I don’t have any little ones yet and I don’t plan on having any with my husband, so I haven’t experienced exactly the situation you are talking about, but I do understand how he acts toward you. In fact, the situation you described with his family has occurred just the same in my husband with family at a few different points. Actually, he is much harder to deal with when he is concentrating on “not caring” about someone who’s scorned him and he’s cut them out and when he is expending so much energy on “not caring” that he can’t function in many other ways because it takes acknowledging that someone countered his grandiosity by choosing someone else (or even worse, themself) over him.
He gets mad at me when I am sick because it means that he won’t be “number one” to me. If I don’t want to have a fight when I am sick then I am expected still to meet his “needs”. It is all sick. You are not sick though for recognizing these behaviors. No matter how many times he tells you too, you are not “bad” for choosing yourself or your children’s well-being over his self-centered behaviors and games. Hang in there. You are on the right track and it sounds like your head is on straight. I think SMG is right about most therapists really being clueless to personality disorders. Mine keeps telling me to stop waiting for him to love me back (good advice) and to concentrate on loving more (not so good advice for a N who would bleed me dry in that case) Anyway, it also helps me to realize that I am not crazy and every time I come here to CP and read that other people are just a sick as my husband it reminds me that I am not a horrible terrible person, I am just married to a person who has severe identity issues and a severe disorder that has nothing to do with me other than I am the punching bag for the time being.

#9

Good job on keeping detailed records and a journal. my bf’s last therapist fired him for much the same reason, she could not take his splitting and lies any longer.

That is so right…with a normally nuerotic couple, the advice to just love him more, might be good…but with someone who suffers with a pd, you could hemorage good will for the next 20 years and it won’t be enough. I would counsel loving them for who they are, their humanity or what have you, but being strong with boundaries and limits and consequences. THAT is the kind of love the need and never got. It may not ‘cure’ them (I believe in this arena people aren’t cured, rather they finally learn to grow up, or they don’t) but being strong is almost all you can do if you want to keep your own head and your own life in any kind of order.

#10

 I would counsel loving them for who they are, their humanity or what have you, but being strong with boundaries and limits and consequences.

 

That anyone can do that in a romantic relationship amazes me.  I know I cant.  I need a partner with whom I can relax, find sanctuary, let down my guard and just be...equal.  I dont think I have a heart that can endure having to be that vigilant, that strategic, that guarded.

 

And I think thats how my exN/S was able to do so much damage, so deeply, over so long a time...because I didnt know how to love him without being wide open and unparent-like.

#11

Phoenix: I hear you. I understand the need to be free with the one that you are interested in. Everyone has issues, it is what is, or has become, comfortable for you, that matters. I do wish that life, generally, would be easier. I do. I’m not stupid. I see the logic in that (and I’m not being hostile, just humble) I see that everything shouldn’t be a constant battle. I do understand, however, that because I chose my path (though blindfolded) I am here and so are my kids (who really didn’t choose this) and it is my decision to do what I am doing. I really really admire your strength… I’d love to hear what made you so strong. Maybe I can learn to - like your signal, rise from the ashes. (the phoenix)

As for everyone else, like I just said. Fortunately, I’m not “IN love” anymore. That stopped in 2003. I am in love with the fact that I’m able to be an at home mom and that I was given the strength of my family to know the difference between right and wrong (not an innocent guarded childhood either) so I understand what abuse looks like and vowed not to let it happen in my lifetime. (whoops) Anyway, I just wish that everyday wasn’t a constant battle, but you pick your battles and you move on - if one day the N decides that he’s a needy little boy, you tuck him in with the 5 year old and greet his needs – if only to find peace. If he is battling you like a Roman on Christian crusade - well then, I’ve got armor for that too… only because of my children, mind you.

Annabanana – I get COMPLETELY what you said about being sick, was with the flu this weekend - and mom, graciously took the kids in her hands and let them be with her so I could sleep through the worst fever… when he came home - I instantly felt the adreneline rush to become “better” and rush to the aide of my kids. I can only imagine that if he wasn’t there - or if my kids weren’t there (God forbid) that I would have happily suffered alone with all the Johnny Depp movies I could get my sickly hands on. Unfortunately it wasn’t so. I was punsihed because he arrived home from a trip and was “PUT OUT” by having to ‘deal’ with his offspring.

This is reality, no??? Lovely.

Goodnight to everyone… I’m going to enjoy the logic here. Thank you all for being strong individuals who seek healing and help.

Jaembee

#12

That anyone can do that in a romantic relationship amazes me.  I know I cant.  I need a partner with whom I can relax, find sanctuary, let down my guard and just be...equal.  I dont think I have a heart that can endure having to be that vigilant, that strategic, that guarded.

This isnt a judgment on anyone else except me, and what I'm not capable of...in fact it may not even be a judgment of me, it may just be self-awareness..and an admission of what I will make sure I dont have tio ever deal with again..e.ven if it means I have to be alone.

 

I'd rather be alone and happy or unhappy of my own making, than on-guard because of someone else.

 

Thats all.  Thats me.

 

I recognize the space between me and you...and all the other people here who found themselves in incredibly difficult relationships.

#13

Phoenix, I think I understand what you meant. And thanks for clarifying so that nobody ends up with hurt feelings- I know I am pretty fragile and raw in the ‘feeling’ department.

I will also say that I know that I have some learning to do with regard to choosing to be happy or unhappy ONLY because of my own doing rather than at someone else’s whim. I know I’ll get there and you are helping me.

Today is a good day and it is largely due to the shelter I find with all of you here at CP. I feel lucky to have this place to turn to and be understood. Thanks Phoenix and thanks to all of you for sharing your stories. I think we all can find a bit of comfort in knowing we aren’t alone in the fight and we aren’t crazy despite what the N may say.

#14

Hi Anna

I read what you wrote and wanted to comment on the “choosing to be happy” concept.

I tried to do that while I was with my exN/S. I forced myself to think only of the positive, or focus only on the pleasure, or choose not to dwell on what was making me miserable. I found in the end that was just crazy-making, like I needed anymore crazy-making in my life!

I also found it fit in tightly with my exN/S saying things like:

  • when I found I could no longer trust him because he was being deceitful, secretive and manipulative, he would say “I apologized didnt I? just CHOOSE to trust me, its a choice, like being happy is a choice”

well (ahem) no it isnt.

And I found in the end, even when I was free of the rollercoaster (he was always creating but blaming me for when I was hurt or upset over it) was that even the absence of insanity doesnt allow for the choice to be happy.

So I like that concept, having enough freedom and ability to choose your frame of mind. Trust me, I spent years trying to control my own emotions, thought processes, force my brain around tight corners or into the sun when it was most apparently in the dumpster. But what I found was true for me, after having to grieve what needed to be grieved, after getting angry over what was justifiably mine to be angry over, to be confused until ever so slowly clarity leaked in, and now to feel love in my heart when really my ex should have to pay for what he did to me is –

I cant choose to be happy when theres grief to be done, to be serene when theres anger to be processed, clearheaded when he purposely twisted me up like a pretzel, or indifferent when my heart really did love with commitment.

What I CAN choose is to do something about it.

I CAN choose to give myself permission and freedom from guilt for what I feel,

I CAN choose to go to therapy, including EMDR to deal with all the negative emotions that were impeding my quality of life (and to some extent still are)

I CAN choose to reach out to friends and socialize in order to take a break from the misery and laugh instead

I CAN choose to delve into my painting, photography, jewelry making etc to get lost in the groove that being creative can do…

I guess what I’m saying is, I really dont believe I can choose to feel something different than what I am feeling, but I can choose whether or not to stay stuck, to be in denial, to add to the insanity…or consistently choose something everyday that takes me one step closer to normal.

I dont know how true that is for everyone, but I know its true for me that forcing myself to feel something different than my instincts, intuition and heart were telling me when I was IN the relatioNship only made things worse for me.

does that make sense?

#15

Actually it makes a ton of sense and it illuminates why a particular uphill battle I’ve been climbing- to make myself happy while in the middle of a verbal barrage- was a losing one. My counselor has told me that I need to “change my mindset” and “control my feelings” and “feel them, but not to dwell on them” I think the last one I may be able to do to an extent with distractions, but I’ve found the intensity of the negative feelings grow over time since I’m still IN the N relationship. Now the other two I have been baffled and battling and I think it’s because I can’t do those things right now in my situation.
The reality is that I am in an abusive relationship, one that is NOT based on love but dominance and control so for me to try to imagine that my relationship is real, solid, genuine, or anything in between really does crazy-make. (actually, the acknowledgement of the situation is sort of scary and feels unreal too) I feel even more off balance when I try to avoid the pain, anger, resentment, and lonliness that are signature of a situation like that. To pretend that things are different than they are just makes things spin even more.
I look forward to the day when I can truly acknowledge my right to feel these feelings that keep creeping up that I’ve suppressed and avoided so that I can process and move past this relationship. Sadly, I don’t think that day will come until I am already gone and out of the relationship. I think from a distance, the things I see now will become clearer as they have for you.

I have been thinking of switching to a new counselor- perhaps trying to find someone who’s dealt with Ns or their partners before.

#16

dominance and control – check! check!

I was just talking to my T about this 2 weeks ago. Have you seen the miniseries from a few decades ago called ROOTS?

Know when the slave was brought over to America and the slave owner wanted to call him Toby, and he refused saying “Kunte Kinte!”…and was so defiant that the slave owner strung him up and whipped him until his back was slashed up and bloody? and STILL he refused …“KUnta Kinte!!”

yeah baby, that was me

almost my entire 7 year relationship I refused to accept, despite my exN/S telling me how much he loved me and was committed to me, to be under his thumb, to accept the lies he was telling me to trust an untrustworthy guy, to be happy within a miserable relatioNship. Although I tried, there were times I tried to be happy and trusting and relaxed…but in my heart, where an abusive guy cant ever touch me no matter what he does…there’s a Kunta Kinte who REFUSES to buckle.

I somehow suspect theres one in all of us.

#17

You’re a powerful writer Phoenix. It is empowering to see where you are now - and imagine myself there sometime soon. Can I ask a question – do you have any desire to pursue a relationship in the future? From where I sit, I can firmly tell myself with 100% conviction that I will NEVER marry again - but I can always hope that I won’t fall into the same trap that I have this time. Being guarded will be a part of me for a long time to come… does that go away/become easier to handle when letting someone else in?

#18

(my apologies, this is long)

That whole relationship thing evolved over the last 2 years. When I broke up with my exN/S I thought I’d take my time grieving and then, like in the breakup of my non-N marriage, when I was finished I’d open myself up to dating and start a new relationship (it seems whatever it is men want in a long term relationship I seem to have - I’ve never had to be single when I didnt want to be).

AT the same time I also had guys asking me out, men who were interested in me previously who didnt mention anything because they knew I was taken. I was open to “fun and adventure” so I promised myself I’d say yes to any invitation I got. But it was way too soon. Every guy who wanted to sleep with me, have a relationship with me, even after awhile just kiss me got kicked to the curb. Its when I realized I was intimacy-phobic.

I had a Mr NiceGuy in my life forawhile, a really intelligent, sensitive, serene Buddhist who seemed to know exactly where my head was at and didnt push anything, just was open to any invitations I made of him. And that lasted for a good long while, but I think because he realized I wasnt ever going to be truly intimate with him emotionally OR physically, he just faded out of my life. I think he wanted to see if I’d pursue him, but I didnt, and so I havent heard from him in a long time. I dont miss him. So I’m thinking it was a good thing he left for greener pastures.

Since then I’ve noticed I have absolutely NO desire to be with anyone. I have some really great men in my life with whom I have platonic friendships, so I get some measure of male energy and company in my life, but I’ve found

contrary to what my plans were for me, contrary to what I wanted for my life, my hearts gone pretty well cold. I’ve written about it here before. I assume since I no longer feel warm-hearted, I no longer come across as warm anymore.

I’m kinda sad about that. I havent been a cold woman before in my life, its not how I want to be, but here I am, after all this therapy and recovery…cold.

I’m not filled with violent hatred anymore so I’m relieved assuming I probably no longer look like a woman who’d just as soon kill you as hold the door open for you! But I figure now I just give off the vibes that I dont give a shit about anyone…because for the most part…I dont. Sad eh?

But now that I think about it, I dont get much pleasure out of much of life anymore. So the whole “its time to stop grieving and start being selfish and fill my life with pleasure” thing is a perplexing concept to me, its why I’m asking for as much feedback and suggestions as I can get.

I dont get asked out on dates anymore, not at all interested in joining any dating sites, I dont miss sex (despite having had a sex life with my exN/S where I got to express all the richness and depth of me and feeling fulfilled that way), so I dont feel I’m missing anything not having any casual partners either. I think my libido’s gone the same way as my heart… cold.

I have often wondered aloud here, and to my T’s and friends if that part of my life is over now. The one T I was with for a few years said she doubted it because she’d seen me be such a loving and big hearted person for so long it was part of my character.

(nodding) …well, I havent felt loving or big hearted in quite awhile.

I hate to think a N/S can destroy whats good and beautiful in a persons heart.

I know a Hell’s Angel, R. R’s heart got broken badly by his last exwife when she left him for his best friend. He needed years to recover from that. He married the vicepresident of a corporation a few summers ago. I attended the wedding. Imagine that if you will (chuckling). Anyway, I asked him about love. He said he’d lost his capapcity to love when his exwife left him. I asked him about his latest marriage to a really sweet, really smart and accomplished woman. He said he was fond of her and appreciated her and felt affectionate toward her, which is a “kind of love” and that he didnt want to be alone, but he was fairly certain whatever he had in him that was able to love someone before, was gone, and it would never be coming back.

I had thought at the time he’d just need time to recover again, allow himself to be vulnerable and trust his new lady…but I think now I know EXACTLY what he meant.

Or rather, I FEAR I know exactly what he meant.

For me its not about marriage. I had a marriage to a nice guy, a nice kid, a nice house in a nice neighbourhood. I had that experience we all hope for already. It didnt last more than 17 years with my exhusband, but it sort of still lives on, my sons father and I are still good friends, we still care about one another, we’re sort of still a family…sort of. So I dont feel like I’m missing anything, I already had it, and it was good.

But with my exN/S…

its all different. Theres no joy in my heart anymore, not for any thought of any romantic relationship ever again.

The walls are up I suppose, or maybe they arent and I’m just empty inside? I dont know. I dont feel sad about it, or doomed, I’m rather quite blah about it, and life ever since I got out of the hospital this summer.

Thats where I am today. I’m willing to feel different in the future, but really the truth is I dont have any hope it might be.

#19

I’m sorry, as usual I wrote too much, but in answer to your question –

I have no clue, my recovery so far, is a failure in that department.

#20

I have that same fear for myself. I walk around all day with a frown/scowl on my face. Being with my children is what I do all day. It is draining - but worth it when I feel my face lighten up and realize I’m smiling. I think that because of them, I’m able to find some joy.

I know the fighting won’t end after we go (if I can muster the strength for that battle – how do you tell them?) I’ll have to be careful. Most of all, I don’t want my children to hate me for leaving their Dad. I don’t think I could physically handle my own flesh and blood hating me.

I think that it will take a very long time, that we all need to be a little selfish for our own sakes… but then, isn’t that what an N does? I feel more and more like never doing for myself because I don’t want to nuture any N tendencies within myself.

Hmmm… wandering through my mind here.

I don’t want to give my N so much power that he is able to take my capacity to love again away…