Phoenix, your message about moving on makes me feel sad for you. I know you said that you are ok in the state you are in, which is great, but it seems like that sort of emptiness is lonely in its own way. I know that you feel that you got to “live the dream” already so it is okay not to have it now, but what keeps you going then? I suppose friendships can be just as fulfilling, but they still involve being somewhat open and giving. I derive most of my happiness from giving and helping. (or trying to) You give and help here so often that I get the feeling some of your happiness is found here in helping too.
Anyway, even if you believe you are empty or cold, I don’t. I think there is so much love in you that someday you will be in a place where you are comfortable and the wall (if it exists) will crumble. You will have a new zest for life. I think that sort of thing is inevitable in people like us. Not saying we are the same in many ways, but in one way- we are caring people. We need to care to feel alive. Am I way off?
Phoenix, that is very beautiful and so touching. I really love reading everything you write. I hope someday to be able to express myself as beautifully as you can. It is very interesting that you work with teens and it was originally such a help to you. The fact that you are not so attached to it really shows that maybe you’ve helped your inner child to feel some comfort. That is just awesome!
jaembee- I have the same fear. In fact, I have a difficult time dealing with men hitting on me- partly because I am married and wear a ring. It is more than a normal amount of ‘leave me alone, im married’ vibe. It is like an “ew, what is wrong with this sleezebag. why is he hitting on me.” I supposed it is partly that I don’t understand anymore why they would want me because of how low my self esteem has gotten. I was a pretty attractive, funny, lighthearted person before I met him. I walk around with that same frown and I know the infectious smiles you are talking about. I don’t have my own children, but whenever my friends’ babies are around I am all smiles and I don’t care about myself or my misery. It is pretty cool actually.
One way to look at is that you are not dead if you can still feel that infectious joy with your children. Truthfully, you have the resiliant ability to allow joy to enter your world of misery no matter how dark it seems. I hold onto that and hope that I don’t ever let him take that from me. My dream in life is to get into a carreer where I can help people so that I will truly love what I do and get that infectious joy in small doses every day.
Sure, I’m scared of being permanently dulled in the heart, but I think there is hope. I don’t know where I get this hope from- it is what keeps me going, so it’s a blessing, it is also what keeps me here staying with him, so it’s also a curse.
I dont feel a need to help people, or give…but I do anyway. My career is teaching at-risk teens, and I went to therapist training for 3 years so I could be better at it. But in my awareness, I do that for me. Not so I can feel powerful or like a saint, but because its become clear to me through therapy that I’m trying to fix something bad that happened to me when I was a teen.
But I noticed as I got that awareness I no longer feel as emotionally invested in them as I used to. I think thats a sign of health.
When I’m helping them, I’m really reaching back and helping me.
When I come hoem though I am flat, or rather I’m not aching to be with people or help people or even to talk to people (I do that all day long). I dont feel lonely. Thats like feeling a need to be with a man, I dont feel a need to be with people either. I like the companionship but when I dont have it, I dont miss it.
And I’ve come to terms with the prospect it might be this way for me for a very long time.
Regarding kids. My 12 yr old son is a great kid. As well as being kindhearted and smart and creative and athletic and social – he is also funny, and if I may say so myself beautiful. So I have lots of moments of laughter with him, as well as just catching my breath because he’s one of the focuses of beauty in my (artist’s) life.
I’m able to be present for thos e moments of joy, as I am for others outside in the rest of the world. But thats different for me than being happy or warm hearted. I mean, my son always has my heart, but thats much different than being open to a man who shows any interest in me.
I care a LOT about being a good mother, I dont care at all about being a lover or wife anymore.
I like hearing about your li ves though, I hope you’ll write more about where your heads are at. I like hearing about other people’s progress and successes and unexpected surprises.
regarding being selfish…I think a certain level of selfishness is a sign of health
I like Ayn Rand’s ideas of how a woman needs to be that kind of selfish.
I just dont know what that is right now…except to not be very giving anymore.
I’ve stemmed the leak from the fuel tanks, I just havent figured out yet how to fill them back up again.
Annabanana - I recently took four days off, in a row, and left N/H in charge of my children (my mother was also there for backup and to monitor). I drove 5 hours away to a great city with some old friends (of 18 years). Four days away - for the first time in 6 years! I haven’t had a break away from my kids in 6 years (longer if you count being pregnant!) Anyway - during that time, though I still had the ring - I was enjoying myself with my friends and never ONCE had anyone look at me with interest.
I came home from my four day break and I mourned my lost zest for life - I wear this mask, to hide myself from being so hurt… and I guess it’s out there for everyone to see. I want that to go away. I also mourned the freedom of choices that I had - and having to slip back in to my ‘coat of concerns’. For me, that was a huge help and wakeup for me.
Do you ever feel guilty for any happiness you may be having during the day? My H is gone A LOT (thankfully) so, when he’s away for days at a time for work, I get happy. But when he calls, I slip back into my nearly monitone, defensive self and find admitting that I have had a great day makes me feel guilty and mostly like it’s wrong. This is something that I have told him - like I’m waving it in his face, “See what you’ve done to me? I can’t even have a great day and admit it to you… I’m afraid that if you think I am enjoying myself you’ll think everything is fine between us and there is NO way that is true.” Does that sound familiar to you – or anyone out there that may be reading this?
I can hardly wait for my therapy session. I just called her back today and scheduled something… she thought that we were through (N/H cancelled the sessions and we held a “closing” session in September – against my better judgement.)
It’s wierd, he was better when he was in therapy - like being held accountable for his (mis)behavior was causing him to tow the line somehow… not that he was flawless… mind you.
I am really greatful for the time that has been taken on my cause here. It sucks that we have this disorder in common, but I’m really kind of glad that we do.
Achievement of your happiness is the only moral purpose of your life, and that happiness, not pain or mindless self-indulgence, is the proof of your moral integrity, since it is the proof and the result of your loyalty to the achievement of your values.
To say “I love you” one must first be able to say the “I.” Ayn Rand
Anna
thank you for your kind words.
I dont feel like I’m articulate, in fact 90% of the time I feel woefully inadequate when speaking or writing… images (art) is my first language, I’m barely fluent in words. I apologize for always writing too much.
I know excatly what you are talking about in hesitating to share a good day with the N. He really doesn’t hold back much though- he is a fighter and loooooves arguing so if I have a good day he will do whatever he can to “bring me back down to earth” and make me upset again. He picks fights. So I have learned to have my happy times away from the house or- and this is the best thing I ever came up with- smoking again. I know it sounds horrible, but it gives me an excuse (when I’m on the phone) to leave the room and go outside of the house without needing to explain that I need privacy. So that provides me time to enjoy good news with my sister or my friends. You see, I am a military wife and we are stationed far away from all my family and friends, so if I want contact with them then I have to do so over the phone. When I would talk on the phone in the house he would get so mad and “accidentally” turn the TV up (so loud that I couldn’t hear even upstairs) or start asking me a bunch of questions that could wait until i was off the phone. Eventually, I end the call to give him the attention he is so desperately demanding. ugh!
But, I have started to hang out with one of his friends wives and I have to say that she and I have very similar relationships with our husbands- he has some N traits too.
It is good to come here because the N wants us to believe that we are imagining the things he does and says- later denying entire conversations that were hurtful, etc- so that we can be “crazy” and he can feel like he is not doing anything wrong. I am a little surprised that your husband agreed to go to counseling. Mine went to once and the counselor mentioned that our relationship is “abusive”. The word set him off and he was so angry and denying everything. The counselor said that as long as it was physically abusive then he wasn’t willing to counsel us because he needed to know that there wouldn’t be hell for me to pay when we went home for talking openly. We never went back because he wanted to counsel us seperately first.
Anyway, I think it is good for you to go to counseling just for you- to get strong, to get your zest back, to find joy, and to maybe eventually find a path that leads to happiness even if that path is not side-by-side with him anymore. I know that the path I’m on with my hubby leads only to misery. I know I want to be a mommy and I just can’t subject a child to him because I have seen him act unspeakably to our puppy. She is so sweet and obedient so there is no reason other than to mess with me. One time he was holding her down and she was crying. She was so scared that she pooped on him. I thought it was funny. He beat her so hard she limped around for a week.- he said she was just a wuss. ---- eww that story makes me sick now. at the time I thought"I don’t know about training dogs so maybe…" no no no, it is just wrong.
You never write too much phoenix. You have helped, and continue to help me, immensely. Thank you!
This morning he sent the puppy to her cage for no reason and I told him to let her out so she could eat before we go to work. He said “she likes being caged…and so do you. We should get you a cage. hahaha(maniacal laugh)” I said “You’d love that wouldn’t you, then you could control my mind and my body. It wil never happen- face it.” He sort of backed down and was quiet. - feel like I won a little.
Anna, OMG! Yours is so malignant!! I can not imagine your grief level on a daily basis. Just keep in mind that Karma has big teeth - and she uses them on those who are deserving! Bless your heart!
No, mine has only been emotionally/verbally/financially abusive. He’s never been physically abusive to me. He has lashed out and smacked a hand too hard (I called CPS and reported it and he was found innocent. Damn.) But he is also a high ranking military man. (recently promoted). He’s considering going back to “active duty” and thinks that I’m going to uproot my secure life here for whichever station he chooses. (like it’s all up to him!) I have started making roots grow not only for the kiddos but for me and I think he resents the hell out of my new found importance outside the home and in the community.
Mine has the opposite issue with pets - I came downstairs one night after a particularly long discussion (it was around 0300) found him sitting in the dark, talking to our cat. Literally sitting on the couch, the cat was on the ottoman and he was speaking to her like she was really listening and actively participating in his conversation. He did, however, flush my kids goldfish down the toilet instead of taking them to the petstore as I had arranged prior to our last move. (I’d left ahead of him with the kids and set everything up, the fish were in baggies and everything, all he had to do was go deliver them to the pet store. Instead he flushed them… and we had a grinder pump on our sewage line at that house! EEEwwww!)
I think it isn’t that he even doesn’t like the puppy particularly, but he knows I love her like a child (Im a major softy for animals) and abuses her because he knows it upsets and scares me. hmm, then I do wonder why he hurts her when Im not home sometimes.
That is so strange about the cat. My husband used to torture my cats by putting them in the dryer or just scaring them so bad that they would hide in the closet whenever he was over (we were dating then, should’ve seen this as a sign of sadistic tendancies) so they wouldn’t eat for days. I put them up for adoption because I couldn’t have them treated that way. Hindsight shows I should’ve put him up for adoption! I thought (as he told me time and again) that I was too much of a “bunny-hugger” as he calls them and didn’t have the same (sick and twisted- as I now see) sense of humor as him.
Annabanana, I too was in a relationship with a NPD for 6 yrs.I’ve only been totally No Contact for 3 wks now, but out of his house and in my own place for 6 months. So I totally get what you are going thru. It has to be even worse when your married to one. I was engaged for the last 3 yrs to XN. Alot of crazymaking,verbal abuse,and a smidge of physical when I was getting to the N. And I like you, am seeing a therapist that I don’t think knows how to help me. XN and I started seeing her together for couples conseling , after 3 good sessions where he got to make me look like the witch he quit going (which I expected) I continued to see her, but she doesn’t seem to get it. I went on line to see if I could find one that specialized in NPD. No luck. So I will keep looking.But I wanted you to know your not alone in all this. you can look me up anytime and I will try to help. I have been reading alot of books about NPD’s and that helps me more than the
therapist. That might help you make sense out of what they do to us and why. Then help YOU learn to deal with him, so you don’t loose yourself. And sometimes you just need to vent or talk to someone who has been thru it too. I am new on this site so I don’t know anything about anyone here. Anyway, I’m here if you want to talk.  Blessings to all. Cricket
— On Thu, 11/6/08, annabanana npd-cpt10904@lists.careplace.com wrote:
From: annabanana npd-cpt10904@lists.careplace.com
Subject: Re: [npd] Ego Hit
To: heyroxann@yahoo.com
Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 11:54 AM
Hi J. I would like that question answered also. How long have you been with N? or out of the relationship with XN? I have talked to a few more experienced women who were married to N’s for 30+ years, they said they have no interest at all in a romantic relationship with men. They are happy to just be out of that horrible relationship, hang out with thier friends, family,hobbies and homes.I didn’t didnt know if that was because of the peace of not being in that turmoil, age, bad experiences or just gave up on love. But was afraid to ask them for fear of insulting them.Anyway… I would like to know also.  Cricket
— On Thu, 11/6/08, jaembee npd-cpt10904@lists.careplace.com wrote:
From: jaembee npd-cpt10904@lists.careplace.com
Subject: Re: [npd] Ego Hit
To: heyroxann@yahoo.com
Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 12:17 PM
I was with a narcissist for 23 years. I have two sons with him. As I read, I of course could relate to all of you somewhat. My husband was not romantic (only when on the prowl–before marriage). My husband said, “I don’t do cats!” When a cat showed up at our door out of nowhere and my sons begged to keep her. We ignored him and put her in the cellar, later slowly letting her in our upstairs, where my ex let it go. I believe a few times he gave her a pet. However, when we were going through the most horrendous divorce (Worse than “War of the Roses”), my ex said to our sons, “The cat is the last extension to your mother!” Later, after 10 plus years, the cat was gong. We were sharing the cat. My sons were in college, and the cat’s territory was our home. When I took her to my new place she was not happy. So I kept her when my sons were home with me until summer, when she could roam outside at our home. My sons were there in the summer (summer jobs). One night, my son let the cat out (like always), and she never came home. All of us, while we will never be sure, think that my ex took her and dumped her off somewhere. I don’t know about all of you, but I think, with the kinds of things that these people do, is borderline sociopathic. Like Autism and Aspergers, I believe that Narcissism is on the same spectrum as sociopathy. There may be some guilt, if they allow it, but they are soooo controlled, vengeful, damaging, and hateful, that they will never see that what they do is wrong because they feel they have been wronged! And, like the person who said, “they are too busy getting back to the one who left him,” that is exactly what happened with my ex. He spent so much time obsesses with getting me back, that I spent six hours on the stand over trying to get me for “common law marriage.” He so much as hired a private investigator to follow me. It was truly insane and very stressful for me, my children, and everyone in my life. Do you think he cares or has any remourse? Absolutely NONE! So, this is who they are. We ain’t changing them! You could scream at them about all of this until you are blue in the face, and it’s like screaming at someone who has no ears. They are not listening! Also, if you haven’t noticed, do! They will reveal it sooner or later (if you pay attention), they are very robotic. My question still is: Do they have a soul?
MarielLee
You’re in a new relationship, how did you find the transition from the post-N state of mind, to the openess for a new relationship?
What was it that allowed that to happen do you think?
It was very difficult at first, for quite some time, and as all of you know, there is such an “after affect” that only those of us who suffer from these ramifications know what I am talking about. My new partner was extremely aggressive. He was not going to give up from persuading me that he was the one for me and that I did not know what love looked like and that he was going to show me how I should be LOVED. I was extremely skeptical of him. I was going through some heavy therapy sessions and of course I still loved my husband and wanted it so bad to be what it wasn’t. I was guilt ridden for what my decision was doing to my sons. I was really and truly in a state of NUMBNESS. All along, my partner (at the time, a man who was pulling for us to make it happen) was hanging in there. To be brutally honest, back then, I couldn’t think beyond the moment. I didn’t know if I was going to go back to my husband or not, but I did know that what he was all about was “NOT NORMAL,” only I couldn’t put my finger on it. I had no clue what pathological narcissism was. Everything was revealed to me during this time. I know that what happened to me (divorce and the new man in my life) was a divine intervention. Even when my husband would call and even cry, something beyond my own force was not letting me be the “typical me.” As a result, my ex was doing everything the book said.
Just for some tid-bit information (and sort of a laugh if it didn’t involve my sons), I called my oldest son today and he and his brother were with their father for lunch. As I was talking with my son, my ex said as loud as he could to both my sons, “I’m having a huge party tonight, why don’t you both come for dinner.” Now, mind you, he was with them all morning because he was helping my youngest purchase a car. Did he say that then? Of course not! Instead, he says it right when my oldest is talking to me. I told my son, “He’s saying that for my benefit.” Later, my son said to his father, “Dad, Mom knows you said that on purpose for her to hear you, and she said, it’s nice that you are having a huge party now that you have a new family, because you didn’t with us.” My ex husband said to my son, “Tell your mother to eat shit!” Both my sons told their father that he was very immature; what’s the profile of a narcissist, immaturity? Yes, it is, and boy is he EVER! If it wasn’t said to my sons I really would have had a good laugh. He’s seriously pathetic! And of course, cruel as hell!
As for the man in my life…it has been a long road for both of us. The man in my life went through hell from my ex-husband. My ex husband tried to ruin his career and his reputation. But, we held on, and I want to say he is the most loving man and extremely genuine. He has been my rock through it all.
(smiling) are you in love?