hie everyone- just had a rough night with N. so much garbage comes out of his mouth - he jsut does not even make sense. now that i can “hear” what he is really trying to say i find that he is just a scared little boy finally realizing that I am letting go and moving on. he tried to make me feel bad about myself, the way i wore my make up, my attire, my friends, my job … all the things he used to have control over and now he does not. he tried to manipulate what i know is the truth but i would not allow it. i do not believe that he is beyond help… he is so close to seeing it but I know that I cannot let this “magical thinking” seduce me. yet, i am still deeply hurt by the things he says even though i know they are not true. i am deeply wounded by his harsh behavior. the only reason he wanted to see me was to prevent me from going out with my friends. he does not want me but he does not want me to move on either. why is the heart and the mind so completely disengaged in these people and those that love them. i wish my head could think for my heart…
LOL maryb, comments like yours make me feel SUCH the minority around here!
I’m a guy, by the way - and I for one don’t understand how you gals walk - or drive! - in those things
I wish I could attach an mp3 of Nancy Sinatra to go along with this post - that would really hit the spot 
Rene
----- Original Message ----
From: maryb2100 npd-cpt5918@lists.careplace.com
To: descartes326@yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 2:01:09 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] healing-will it ever happen?
Jacy - hang tough girl. He is just like a scared little boy - you’ve been his security blanket - he’s drug you through the dirt and stepped on you, but you were his… While I sometimes feel sorry for mine because I don’t think this is his fault(being an N), it doesn’t matter. Mine is feeling the same - he finally realizes I AM moving on and he’s suddenly interested again. It doesn’t matter. We cannot fix them, we cannot help them, we cannot change them - we can only do those things for ourselves, and we must! Remember that, if his lips are moving, he is probably lying. Harsh, but usually true. You deserve better - chin up - read posts - ask questions - stay strong. You are doing the right thing for the rest of your life.
Angiezee you are so right.It’s time to take off your high heels and put on your boots.Don’t throw your heels away-you’ll wear them again
Boots are great, but I CAN kick and walk away in my heels too 
thanks for the comments and support and the smiles…have’nt done that in a while. just started taking antidepressants to ward off the uglies… so very thankful for this forum…oh yes, mercenary… how do we wak in them? very carefully! lol thanks all hugs and prayers
I hope things have settled now… defo try to keep strong and we all send support…it can be so hard to keep going. Head and heart conflict is a real problem for most of us…
Good luck whatever you try to do.
i know how you feel. why do we feel hope for them. but why are they unfixable? this is the part I have a hard time with. I feel like i fix my baggage and try to be a better person. why can’t they? I am so angry that he is not sitting here wasting days after days not reading about NPD and I am. I am wasting my time. it is so sad that they are like this. I hate that it is so hopeless. has anyone ever seen progress? Has anyone ever been wrong and had something great happen? and a glimmer of hope and had their N try and show improvement and for real?
You can ask all of us -does it get better and we’ll all answer NO! For me personnally the abuse got worse and we had everything going for us for him to change.We had a great church that believes in miracles,a great counselor who knew the problem and doctors plus me -who loved him dearly.The best thing you can do is let go and let God.Easy to say -very hard to do I know.If you think your’e going crazy now ,stay with him longer and you will have a harder time finding youself.You become completely consumed in him,and if I only do this better or if I dont do this or maby we should try this and on and on.I understand the desperation and your love.He is toxic for you.Ask Mamolie if you should stay.
I second everything maryb2100 just said. Unfortunately, you are still experiencing “magical thinking” - something commom to EVERY ONE of us. From all the reading I’ve done, I believe that we (the women who are with a N) are different - we are special, more giving, sharper, and more forgiving as well. But, all the excuses we make for them, all the prayers we say for them, and all the wishes we have for them mean NOTHING if they don’t 1) realize that they have “issues” 2) seek help and 3) then make the changes. From what I understand, even those who do those things have challenges - this is deeply ingrained - it’s who they are and have always been. For your sake, make the decision to make the split and then work on it daily - baby steps. It WON’T be easy - we all know that - ask us for help. You WILL be sucked in from time to time. You WILL probably feel guilty. You WILL have episodes of magical thinking - that’s normal. Put on the high-heeled boots and start moving.
By the way, I have an index card with “Let Go and Let God” taped to the dash of my car!!
Again I totally agree with the others…
…and I agree totally with you too…about how hard it is to accept that they arent fixable…
I still suffer from magical thinking I know…I dont think my friends a full blown N but I still am trying to think hes not as bad as he is…
All we can do is try step by step a day at a time…
I hope you don’t “Let Go and Let God” while you’re driving!!!
Rene
----- Original Message ----
From: angiezee npd-cpt5918@lists.careplace.com
To: descartes326@yahoo.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 6:32:39 AM
Subject: Re: [npd] healing-will it ever happen?
Hopetoday, all,
The verdict is still out in my mind as the whether or not I can manage to have a long term, ‘healthy-enough’ relationship w/ my bf…but I will tell you that he has some strong N traits/defenses BUT that he HAS IMPROVED. I will list what I have seen as improvement, and also list the caveats that are unique to my situation. You can read in my journal about my first year w/ this man if you want to get an idea of what I was dealing with.
Improvments
Probably most important…HE ADMITS HE HAS A PROBLEM. He admits he is Narcisstic (never been diagonsed w/ NPD…but has been told by therapist and ME he has some troublesome N defenses). Point is, he sees it, admits to it, does NOT blame me or others ANY LONGER for problems and misunderstsandings that he single handedly creates or at least contributes to. He will even ask me when he says or does something he is unsure of…'am I being narcissistic?..is that narcissistic?" And I will answer him honestly, either yes, it is…or no, doesn’t feel that way to me. He truly does not know often what IS and what is not narcissitic…so he checks in with me and/or his counselor to ask.
HE DOES NOT RAGE ANYMORE. He will raise his voice from time to time and express anger/frustration if we are in a disagreement…but he does NOT RAGE.
BLAME- He no longer immedately blames the world for his problems…he asks of himself to look at how he contributed to any ‘problems’ that arise w/ me or others…and what steps can he take to correct the problem.
HE IS STAYING AWAY FROM TOXIC PEOPLE- Whether they be narcissitic family members, or old frat buddies that do nothing but drink and drug there way through life…he has distanced himself from unhealthy people who live in unhealthy, negative ways.
AGREEMENTS-He has co-authored agreements and signed ‘contracts’ with me regarding baseline behavior expected of both of us in this relationship. We go over the agreements regularily to check in and make sure we are in accrodance.
HE TAKES CARE OF HIMSELF- His business has grown exponentially, he excerises, eats right, drinks only in moderation, etc.
EMPATHY- He understands that a lack of empathy is the cornerstone of narcissim…such that empathy is something that HE is having to learn. To do this, he reads anything he can about empathy, discusses it with me, we check in to talk about what is, what is not, empathy. This is hard for him, it’s a state of mind that does NOT come easy. He is learning. It is the MOST important thing for him to learn…because when he operates w/ other non-narcissitic people…a lack of empathy feels to US like emotional abuse. He understands this…how important it is this be a focus of his LEARNIG process.
Caveats:
This man was already in counseling before I met him. So he was already working on himself and certain patterns of dysfunctional behavior has already been pointed out by his counselor. He WANTED to go into therapy FOR HIMSELF. He has felt ‘something was wrong’ since childhood and has always thought that he would like to speak w/ a professional but was too embarassed (you just dont’ do that in his family.) When his marriage was having problems going to counseling w/ his ex wife provided him the EXCUSE to get the help he always wanted. He sees his counselor every week, and I attend from time to time with him.
I have my OWN very capable counselor…someone I was seeing before I met him (I’m getting my masters in psych). Therefore I have had a professional advocate all during my relationship w/ my bf…she helps me to stay grounded, think for myself, and take care of myself. I touch base with her weekly. In the beginning when it was truly crazy (as I didn’t not know exactly what I was dealing with at first)…having a professional to touch base w/ helped keep me grounded.
My bf has been in weekly counseling for over 3 years now. This is a long road. He will always have certain traits…he has learned to modify his bahvior though because he wants so badly to connect with people. In the last 6 months especially…he has ‘put down his sword’. He is at the point of allowing himself to be VERY vulnerable…admitting he really doens’t know what the fuck he is doing, that is obvsioulsy why he has had so much disruption in his life…he is looking to his counselor and me and basically saying I am a broken man, please help…I will do anything, teach me.
There is modification of behavior for those who are TRULY motivated but it take a long long time and it never really ‘ends’. Like an alchoholic, he will always have narcissitic tendancys etc. There are also those who say that changes can be made and an even deeper level of HEALING…whereby if the person is brave enough they can go back and truly begin to heal the wounds from childhood that helped create such damage and helped stunt their emotional development. But it is FRIGHTENING…and most are lucky if they can even get to the point of behavior modification.
My bf this weekend had a breakdown unlike anything I have ever witnessed a human being go through …it wasn’t just crying although there were many tears, something was coming out of him…it was truly unlike anything I have ever witnessed…I have never seen so much pain come out of person in my life.
My bf may be one of the folks that has developed some strong N defenses as well as some strong unhealthy co-dependance as a result of living with a very ill, Narcissitic mother. The difference is, he is NO LONGER entrenched…he is no longer intersted in defending this behavior…he is intersted in learning WHAT WORKS. However…there is stuborness there, especially when I first met him. I knew early on if the stuborness continued, even w/ therapy, this would not work. Here is a guy who is improving…but it is a lot of work and probably always will be. When I think back on how it was in the begining of our relationship…if he was still in that place, and NOT getting help, and NOT taking ANY responsbility, and doing and acting the crazy ways they act…I WOULD HAVE TO HAVE GOTTEN HIM OUT OF MY LIFE. IT’S TOO TOO CRAZY. WHEN IN THAT PLACE, THEY CANNOT HELP THEMSELVES…THEY ARE TOO MENTALLY DAMAGED TO KNOW OR UNDERSTAND HOW MUCH HURT THEY WIELD, HOW MUCH PAIN THEY CAUSE OTHERS. THEY DO NOT GET IT. PROTECT YOURSELF AND DO NOT TAKE IT PERSONALLY , I MEAN, TAKE IT PERSONALLY IN THE SENSE THAT IF IT’S CRAZY AND YOUR NEEDS CANNOT BE MET THEN GET OUT…BUT DON’T TAKE IT PERSONALLY LIKE “I GUESS I’M JUST NOT LOVEABLE CASUE THIS GUY KEEPS HURTING ME.” THEY DO NOT SEE IT. THEY MAY BE THE CEO OF A FORTUNE 50O COMPANY, BUT EMOTIONALLY THE DO NOT MAKE SOPHISTICATED OR EMPATHIC CONNECTIONS…THEY ARE AT THE EMOTIONAL EQUIVILNT OF A 6-12 YEAR OLD CHILD…AND NOT EVEN A HAPPY, SECURE CHILD, BUT A CHILD THAT HAS BEEN WOUNDED AND IS IN A CHILD LIKE PROTECTION MODE SO AS NOT TO BE WOUNDED AGAIN.
Do not take it personally. And do not allow yourself to suffer…
Yes, some improve. But it’s a long, long road, and there are NO guarantees and no easy answers. There is a spectrum, is he a one or the scale or a ten or somewhere in between? If it’s on the high end of the scale, I suspect for most that not much can be done. Maybe in the future they will develop better therapy’s or have medications that assist with this kind of personality damage…but right now there’s very little out there. If the person is on the lighter side of the scale and TOTALLY invested in getting better and learning…some improvement can bee witnessed over time. This has been my expereince thus far.
smg
glad to hear he is improving and making progress. I have a question for you, you are getting your masters in psych, please tell me how much time is spent studing the personality disorders, that it caught you by surprise. How much research could possibly be going on for a secret disorder? The mental health professionals seem to be as confused as to what to call it and what exactly what to do about it. The victims are caught in it also, most professionals, don’t recognise what is wrong with us and do not give us the help we need, in fact some have made the situation worse for me.You bet, if there was a pill for it, the drug Companys would be all over it, talking about this disorder all over TV. We would all be informed. What in the world would it take to call attention to this so many lives have been damaged, so many do not know the name of their pain and suffering. Is there a national mental health organization or any at all that you could direct a letter writing campaign to? My life was consumed by this, my son has strong N traits that is most devestating to me. Information could have made all the difference in my life and mostly for my children, there are many more being damaged every day. What did they cover on the personality disorders? hugs mamolie
how did you get him to see that he was N? And how did you get him to work on himself?
do you truly beleive it is working?
I had to glance, I have to run to a meeting and going to read again and more… when I get back.
I just did a rant becasue I only saw page 1 and not page 2 of the posts.
sorry, just feeling very sorry for myself and so very overwhelmed.
My therapist told me that at this moment in time she does not know anyone with more stress than me and that I need to take care of myself. but if I don’t keep moving, my stress will build up and my hole will be a grave. I have so much going on and so little support. I have all the highest stressors in life all at once, I am hoping for the best year in 2008! It better be a good one… I need a break.
when will the “magical thinking go away?” i relate to all of you. i am so in the pain right now and the drama and I can’t breathe and feel dead inside and yet have to keep going and keep fighting but for what?
This relastionship has drained me and killed me inside.
I have survived 2 N relastionships, this i smy 3rd. never again.
why do i still see the good in the evil monster who told me that he wants me to see other people after he had sex with me and told me he loved me?
then i am the abusive person when i flip out and go nuts.
now i told him it was over and wrote him email after email … and I still think one day he might get it but the truth is, he does not give a crap and thinks i am a “heartless” “emotional abuser” and I need to “check my self in” to a mental hospital.
but yet… i still see that he is this hurt person inside and I want to help him and I love him.
and hate him
i am tied to him legally, not married…
i hate my relastionship life.
i want to be in a happy relastionship so bad that I almost feel like it sounds desperate.
why and what is wrong with me that I don’t have this and never had?
Sorry, I know that this was someone else’s topic and then I just went into a rant.
I am feeling very sorry for myself right now and have so much sadness and anger and want to punch him and want him to come crawling back and take accountability for all he has done to me.
why can’t he just say he knows that he is hurting me instead of reversing it on me.
I read all of your posts and I see all of people’s stories. How can this happen to all of us? How does it stop?
why are all of our stories so similar?
This scares me.
I read a ton on n and it drives me crazy that this is our lives.
I want to hear from someone who has found the love of their live and is happy, i do not know any happy relasionships.
i am a city girl, successful in a weird way or on the way, people tell me I am georgeous, beautiful and smart and that any guy would be lucky to have me and that I have it all. why do I feel like the bottom of a pit and one step away from being homeless on the street?
But yet in an hour I will feel happy and then feel trapped, it is a never ending cycle and I want out.
i want something to be easy in my life. I have been going through a nonstop battle of hardness with lots of luck too that keeps me afloat.
Hope,
Was your father a narcissist? This would answer every question.
Mine was. And I put myself in unhealthy
relationships over and over to find love. I would pick the biggest
narcissist in the room and they would abuse me every time. The cycle
will never end until you make it end. Ask yourself, were either of
your parents narcissists and then you may be able to help yourself
heal…
On Sep 17, 2007, at 6:59 PM, hopetoday wrote:
I like the idea of "letting go and letting God"especially running off in high-heeled boots.These NPD relationships are tough and it takes lots of work to move beyond the pain.That`s why this forum is so helpful.Exposing this disorder is imperritive;it will bring the ultimate closure we all need.
Rene - yes, I keep my hands on the steering wheel - I let go and let GOD in everything else, though.
This getting over a N is probably one of the hardest things to do and I know that I am a long way from being done completely with mine. I know that as soon as he’s back in town and realizes that I really have moved on, he will begin whatever tactics he thinks will work to get me back. But, I’ve had time to see what a real, honest, caring man looks like and I am NOT going back. We all deserve better - ladies and gents, this is it! This isn’t a dress rehersal!
My healing truly started after I spent weeks - hours and hours- reading, reading and reading some more. I finally understood that I had to ACCEPT, even if I didn’t fully understand. I accepted that many others have gone before me and fought the same battles. I accepted that I should trust their experiences and not take the time and suffer the anguish in figuring it all out myself. I know that sometimes there are things that we have to act on in faith and I know that this is one of those situatios. Faith that the folks here are the “real deal” - and faith that each one of us was led here to help each other heal. It is sometimes very easy to slip into “pity party” mode - heaven knows I’ve spent a lot of time there. But, it’s never accomplished anything. I think sometimes we have to adopt an “attitude of gratitude” for what we do have (and we each have many, many things to be grateful for) and then really step back and truly Let Go and Let GOD. We will be okay. One day, one hour, sometimes one minute at a time. I have seen the light at the end of the tunnel - trust me, it is there.
Hopetoday,
Back in the month of April,i was right where you are now.I know exactly how you feel.My heart was broken,i was devastated.I was walking around like a lost soul.The anxiety was overwhelming.I called a friend who is a doctor to see if he could help.He called a psychiatrist friend to have him talk to me and prescribe medication which was meant to calm me,but made me drowsy,so i stopped taking it.
It is equally hard having to hear people say how beautiful you are and how anyone would be more than happy to have you,when you constantly find yourself hurt and loving N`s.
This is a difficult stage in the process.You are blessed because you have a name for what you are experiencing.You also have this awesome forum.Many have suffered for months and years without knowing what they were involved with.I can assure you that it gets better,you will feel better.Hold on.This is a safe place.For many of us,our friends are tired and done with this,but we still have Careplace.
Many here have found that a sense of humor is vital.As you continue to connect here you will begin to see how we cope.