I would like a concise but detailed description of the

Narcissistic personality disorder
#21

mariel Lee,

I agree. the biology or the psychology or the chemistry behind the pathology is really only relevant to the person who suffers it.

Those around them, the wives, girlfriends, children, siblings, parents who are abused through their behaviour are like those surrounding an addict. Its not their job to fix them, its their job to keep hold of their own sanity, their own health, their own lives.

Thats likely selfish, but in an Ayn Rand sort of way. A wife cannot fix a husbands brain injury, a girlfriend cannot fix a criminal’s moral compass, a daughter cannot fix her fathers pathological lying no matter what brilliant neurologist, endocrinologist or therapist is available.

The only thing we can fix is ourselves.

And if we should CHOOSE to walk away, or in our getting ready to walk away, or in our confusion about what we can do for ourselves should we not walk away (hi Hopetoday!), and we come to an online forum and we look after ourselves and we search for understanding and support in recovering the very lives we need in order to be healthy, and we use terms like NPD or Jerk, or when we’re really working through our anger and I call hima vampire and a monster or evil, then what the fuck???

We say what we need to say, we cry the tears we need to cry, we yell and scream our anger in the ways we need to, we cling to the hope there will be a better day, we look to people ahead of us, we hold out a hand for the people bringing up the rear and we have faith in each other

Thats not exploiting anyone, least of all the perpetrators of abuse whether it was something they could have prevented or not.

I remember when I cried uncontrollably on the phone with my ex saying “how can you tell me you love me and be cruel to me at the very same time?” and he said “I dont care if you need to put a photo up of me on the wall, draw devil horns on it, and throw daggers at it, do whatever you need to do, but you wont get what you want from me”.

How prophetic.

He is in no way hurt, downtrodden exploited or victimized by me calling him a monster here while I’m thrashing in my hatred for what he did to me.

And you know what? neither am I.

Listen all you survivors and lurkers and self-admitted N’s on this board…post what you need to post. Dont NOT post because I used the word vampire. Dont NOT post because the clocktower girl calls everyone a liar. Dont NOT post because we say we dont know, we dont care, can someone just help?

Post what you need to post.

As long as there is mutual respect, we’ll be OK.

Where there isnt respect, turn a deaf ear.

I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying,

Take what you like and leave the rest.

and

“Hi, my name is Phoenix and I’m a survivor trying to navigate my way back to normalcy. Nice to meet you. Can I get you a tea?”

#22

Phoenix said:

and we use terms like NPD or Jerk,

NPD is a medical condition to be diagnosed in accord with established criteria, not a pejorative to be used at will like “jerk”.

GD

#23

phoenix, where do you get these rationalizations from? If you found your spouse lying on the floor in a coma, would it be his problem to call an ambulance and yours to just be sure the floor was vacuumed? Heaven forbid, I hope if that were to happen to anyone in your path, you will forget Ann Rand and call that ambulance for them.

Are you saying that your ex really had a realistic picture of himself and how he acted in your relationship? Did he really understand that his actions destroyed it? Or did he rather believe it was you. Did he perceive reality normally?

If not, than how could he self assess that he needed help and properly describe to a doctor his abnormal behaviors?

#24

ROTFLMAO.

Great post, CZBZ!

And the inevitable link:

http://samvak.tripod.com/journal67.html

Not sated?

http://samvak.tripod.com/wikipedia.html

:o))

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “CZBZ” npd-cpt3474@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] I would like a concise but detailed description of the…

#25

susiejo,
It has not at all been determined that frontal lobe damage causes NPD. Any differences may be simply inheritable traits, not caused by what is commonly meant by “damage.” Furthermore, there is scientific evidence that genetics (called the genotype), may pre-dispose an individual to the disorder, but the environment will determine the expression of this propensity (called the phenotype). Finally, the strength of the individual ego, and consequently it’s ego defenses, determine the expression and strength of expression of narcissism. So there is personal responsibility, and personal choice involved. Because the narcissist does not care if he or she hurts others does not mean that he doesn’t know he is doing it. That is why it would never be a criminal defense for insanity. They know what they are doing, they just don’t care. Because of whatever odds were stacked against them from the beginning they have a very hard, if not impossible struggle facing their true character. They must be willing to suffer the truth of who they are in order to develop the capacity for empathy. Very few do, but it is entirely possible. In the meantime the only thing loved ones need to concentrate on is their own safety and preservation. It is not a disease because it is not something that simply happens to someone. It is a character disorder because the person cooperates in the disorder, and in fact is often pleased to remain in it. The will is greatly involved.-elee

#26

Actually elee08 whatever the cause is or is not (I personallly think it is usually more likely to be traumatic in origin), the DSM IV TR defines NPD and here is how:

Diagnostic criteria for 301.81 Narcissistic Personality Disorder

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

(3) believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

(4) requires excessive admiration

(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Doesn’t say a thing about what they are aware of or what they care about.

GD

#27

wow
that sounds JUST like my ex.
except number 4 would have to be changed to "requires excessive acquiescing"
astounding.

#28

""susiejo,
It has not at all been determined that frontal lobe damage causes NPD. Any differences may be simply inheritable traits, not caused by what is commonly meant by “damage.”

Yes elee it has been established that frontal lobe damage causes NPD. Sam himself has posted links about the case of the man in the 1800’s who had traumatic brain injury to frontal lobes and subsequently developed the personality disorder. Picks is a genetic disease also identified in the 1800’s that causes personality disorders. Much was done in those mental hospitals in the 50’s doing lobotomies substantiating the same. Hippocrates even noted of the effects of frontal injury on personality. It is not new news. There is plenty to read – it is just not easy readying and no one is going to provide you an answer that says your NPD has a medical problem caused by xyz because that is not the case.

The problem is that people look for NPD as in it being a medical disorder in and of itself. NPD rather is only a term in the DSM-IV representing a set of behaviors. And it is IV because it gets rewritten and labels reshuffled. In neurology as it is falling out, those symptoms are only symptomatic of other underlying problems. Do the homework – it is all right frontal lobe functioning.

Psychology and neuroscience are two different fields. One comes out of the schools of science, the other out of the schools of art and humanities. Just because psychologists put a label on some behaviors does not mean that the neuroscientists are going to take that label and find a cause. There are many problems that can cause dysfunction in those frontal lobes but when those lobes dysfunction, the behaviors expressed can be all the same. What the scientists are giving back is a host of different medical conditions.

""Furthermore, there is scientific evidence that genetics (called the genotype), may pre-dispose an individual to the disorder, but the environment will determine the expression of this propensity (called the phenotype). Finally, the strength of the individual ego, and consequently it’s ego defenses, determine the expression and strength of expression of narcissism.

Picks disease is an inherited genetic disorder, but it is not the only one, nor is it the only medical problem that can cause personality problems. Again brain injury can also. There is scientific evidence for genetics being involved in everything.

""So there is personal responsibility, and personal choice involved.

Freewill is a philosophical issue. Personal responsibility is an assumption made. It has not been established that it really even exists, and if it does, to what degree it is limited by biosphere we live in. Regardless, it would depend on a normal fully functioning brain, not one in dysfunction.

""Because the narcissist does not care if he or she hurts others does not mean that he doesn’t know he is doing it.

Not arguing that personality disorders tend not to feel the normal moral compulsions that would make them limit behaviors that others would find hurtful or unacceptable in various situations. Also would not argue that they have problems feeling empathy and thus, do fully comprehend the ramifications of their actions to others and their relationships with them. Not feeling such, they generally cannot resolve the conflicts and problems that occur. And since not perceiving such, they tend to say it is the other person, not me. But rather than saying “they just do not care”, what I find in the neurology literature is that this is dysfunction of what they call executive functions – other behaviors controlled by the frontal lobes necessary for these functions to occur normally.

""That is why it would never be a criminal defense for insanity.

My favorite was the Moussaoui trial wherein the federal prosecutors argued that schizophrenia was a personality disorder and not a mental illness. And then they have of late been redefining pedophilia to include sex between two teenagers. The law really is another issue to argue and not a place to find any answers to this stuff.

""They know what they are doing, they just don’t care. Because of whatever odds were stacked against them from the beginning they have a very hard, if not impossible struggle facing their true character. They must be willing to suffer the truth of who they are in order to develop the capacity for empathy. Very few do, but it is entirely possible.

Again, this is nothing but another conjecture and the promotion of erroneous information. Wishful thinking for those in a relationship wanting an easy answer but really nothing supports such opinions.

""In the meantime the only thing loved ones need to concentrate on is their own safety and preservation. It is not a disease because it is not something that simply happens to someone. It is a character disorder because the person cooperates in the disorder, and in fact is often pleased to remain in it. The will is greatly involved.-elee

This is actually just a major personal value statement. More opinions elee with nothing to support them.

#29

Ah but Susiejo,

Sam himself has posted links about the case of the man in the 1800’s who had traumatic brain injury to frontal lobes and subsequently developed the personality disorder

That is exceptionally well documented, (considering the age) and relates to Psychopathy, not NPD (remember, Sam relates EVERYTHING to NPD, even fish and chips). It even has a name “pseudo psychopathic personality disorder”


(with a link at the bottom to Renato Sabbatini’s hard to find work on this)

It is also contested in the specific case of Gage…however I have seen the same thing manifest in people who survived severe head injuries myself, unfortunately I didn’t know any of them pre-injury and there is considerable evidence to suggest that two of them were alcoholic from deeply weird (I MEAN this) backgrounds and the third had an established psychopathic father (though he was raised soley by his mother). Even so, as none of the injuries were related to violence, it is a bit much for coincidence that they all turned out the one way and I never knew anyone else like them.

I certainly agree with you that all these disorders need far more accurate definition and distiction than the DSM…

But not by Sam Vaknin and his personal harpies…and certainly not from unqualified laypeople determining everything in terms of an abusive relationship they are only just escaped from.

GD

#30

elee08 - I agree with mamolie that Sam’s book is the best place to start. Remember that it is written by a N and, as such, you do need to be mindful that perhaps his “slant” on things is a bit different - but, I found it extraordinarily helpful and the only book I needed to begin recovery. I, for one, am thankful to him for writing it and bringing it to the forefront as much as he has. That being said, it doesn’t mean I agree with everything he says, but that’s okay. If you understand enough, you’ll be able to discern different behaviors and the reasons for them - from Sam AND from other board members. Stay true to your gut feelings, read the posts that are offering advice and simply let the negative stuff here go in one ear and out the other - you are too new in your recovery to deal with any more negativity than you already have in your “real” life. If you then also read through a number of the threads here (and on other boards), I think you’ll begin to understand enough to begin to heal. Read intelliegently, objectively and with an open mind (and heart), and I think that you’ll find that narcissism is a very complicated situation and you have to decide what fits and works for you. Best wishes and feel free to message me if I can help. I am not sure how much longer I’m going to continue reading through the massive numbers of bs posts to get to those that are legitimate requests for help…

#31

There are challenges that the accounts of Gage’s personality changes were not completely honest, and also ones that he was a scoundrel anyway but there is plenty more. Lots actually on the psychopath’s brain abnormalities as they contribute so much to criminality. The point is that the association of personality disorders is not new at all.

NPD is different from antisocial but it can be argued it is a matter of degrees. Most on the boards seem to identify with Sam’s account.

I find pseudopsychopath an interesting concept.

#32

You seem to be seeing what I see Susiejo…

There are SO many variables at play, but still it’s too much for coincidence isn’t it?

After all, the ONLY reason the case of Gage was documented enough for analysis IS because his survival AT ALL was so incredible, at the time, documenting personality change would have been WELL secondary.

I personally think there are disorders caused by frontal lobe injury, but that they are slightly different in form from the trauma induced equivalents…

It’s hard to define what I mean by that, maybe it’s connected to what we were chatting about earlier, about the ruthless separation between disorder and judgment or opinion in the case of a neurological condition that may not seem to be so in the case of emotional trauma?

Gd

#33

Discovery channel had a program about a boy who had his right frontal lobe blown off by a gun. Took the skull and all with it as in blown away. They let him heal with a quarter of his brain missing - really strange looking. Absolutely incredible he lived. The focus was on a doctor who molded a skull and did plastic surgery so his head looked normal. they did not go into personality which had to be affected but he functioned, walked, talked, went to school, etc.

Trauma induced problems are very often treatable with therapy. NPD does not ever seem to be despite some claiming they had success - anybody can claim anything but maybe so. If you had a problem say caused by drugs or alcohol, the brain can actually sometimes heal itself. So maybe they got lucky. How many on this board talk of their NPDs abusing alcohol? It actually can cause inability to feel empathy, inability for self insight, temper rages, projection etc. Alcoholism is different but the way things go on this board, everyone is automatically assumed to yea, NPD or you wouldn’t be here.

It’s just been a matter of a few years that some of the genes have been identified in inherited disorders that affect frontal lobes and cause personality problems - they can type for those now. MRIs and PET Scans are now enabling them to see so much more - shrinkage, atrophy, lesions. A lot of times they can identify dysfunction but have to wait for death and autopsy to be sure of the exact cause. The boards of people dealing with diagnosed brain problems have people dealing with ones who are NPD to a tee.

#34

elee08,
While you are correct in saying that frontal lobe damage has not been proven to “cause” NPD, there are many who link the “loss of a gatekeeper” to frontal lobe damage.

In the brain injury community, there is a standing joke that whatever “negative” traits we have prior to head injury are exacerbated 10,000 fold by the injury. In the case of my ex, he probably had some narcissistic traits prior to his injury. He was very successful, in a very driven, high-energy profession. (Surgeon).

Without the internal “gatekeeper” that kept his narcissistic tendencies at bay, he is now a FULL BLOWN DIAGNOSED NARCISSIST…with Paranoid tendancies.

----- Original Message ----
From: elee08 npd-cpt3474@lists.careplace.com
To: ukneeqstuff@yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 5:08:54 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] I would like a concise but detailed description of the…

#35

I am beginning to wonder why some of these people here are sitting with books, particularly, DSM IV TR and quoting it. Who gives a shit. And what is this B.S. about …if he/she is lying on the floor dying, would you call an ambulance. These topics of conversation are stunningly similar to narcissistic behaviors. I question these people/person who pen their name as Blitzen/Suzie, sometimes they sound like a one and only. What is the gain? Who are they impressing? When you use a tool like this for anything, you run into all walks of life. And now as I skim over their conversation with one another, it appears to be just a two-way. I think it may be time for them/her/him to move on to, "The cure for narcissism…frontal labotomy’s forum, and see how quickly they will gather friends.

#36

Mariel lee,
I think the lady doest protest too much…if you get my drift. Narcissists always pick at semantics because they can’t do honest reflection.elee08

#37

But why on earth do you want to ignore what Narcissistic personality disorder actually is when you decide somebody has it?

That seems absolutely ridiculous to me, you are just re-inventing a medical condition to suit yourself and then attacking anyone who doesn’t go along with that.

GD

#38

blitzen,
tell me very clearly exactly what you think I am wrong about, then we can discuss it. At this point all I am getting from you is that you feel frustrated.

#39

CZ

HI :slight_smile:

#40

And personally? I have a library of books about Narcissism that have been
written by respected psychologists. None of them views the NPD in exactly
the same manner. Learning about NPD by listening to people’s stories teaches
us HOW the NPD impacts people’s lives, including the Narcissist.

Sam:

WELL-SAID!

The FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions) section on my Website is actually
culled from years of correspondence with victims! I learned from THEM - not
the other way around!

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq1.html