I would like a concise but detailed description of the

Narcissistic personality disorder
#41

Well you are reading me wrong.

The simple truth is that the ONLY behaviors that conclusively identify a person with NPD are the ones in the DSM IV.

Your descriptions are not consistent with that, nor even relevant to it. No medical or academic professional would dream of making wildly generalized claims about what people “think”, “feel” or “sense inside” because there is no way they could know what anybody “thinks”, “feels” or “senses inside” let alone be able to generalize about it.

Making up your own disorders and then pinning the names of real disorders on them is inexcusable

Real people are already diagnosed with REAL Narcissistic personality disorder by real Doctors, it is just plain WRONG to try and change that diagnosis into something different that those real people do not have to suit yourself.
GD

#42

blitzen,
I would be happy to answer you on what specifically you do not agree with, but you haven’t mentioned anything in particular, ao I am signing off on this conversation for good. Best of luck.

#43

well

#44

Hear, hear! A very good summary of current knowledge, elee.

Phineas Gage was a 25 years old construction foreman who lived in Vermont in
the 1860s. While working on a railroad bed, he packed powdered explosives
into a hole in the ground, using tamping iron. The powder heated and blew in
his face. The tamping iron rebounded and pierced the top of his skull,
ravaging the frontal lobes.

In 1868, Harlow, his doctor, reported the changes to his personality
following the accident:

He became “fitful, irreverent, indulging at times in the grossest profanity
(which was not previously his customs), manifesting but little deference to
his fellows, impatient of restraint or advice when it conflicts with his
desires, at times pertinaciously obstinate yet capricious and vacillating,
devising many plans for future operation which are no sooner arranged than
they are abandoned in turn for others appearing more feasible … His mind
was radically changed, so that his friends and acquaintances said he was no
longer Gage.”

In other words, his brain injury turned him into a psychopathic narcissist.

Brain and Personality - Continue to read this article here (click on this
link):

http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders39.html

Genetics and Personality Disorders

http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders27.html

The Genetic Underpinnings of Narcissism

http://samvak.tripod.com/journal43.html

Brain and Personality

http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders39.html

Narcissists, Medication, and Chemical Imbalances

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq70.html

Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: “elee08” npd-cpt3474@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] I would like a concise but detailed description of the…

#45

My question to all of you is, how do we ever know about these disorders and what goes on inside the head of others? Research! Interviews with patients of these disorders! Comparisons! AND, strikingly similar characterisitics as well as abuse that goes on in the life of a narcissist’s nearest and dearest. How do we know so much about the anti-social disorder (sociopathic)? The autistic child? The child with Aspergers? The bi-polar personality, shizophrenia, etc.? This forum is not about the why’s. Most of us who are here are empathetic human beings; that is why we hurt, that is why we bleed. We have the bleeding heart for our loved ones, and that is why we are here. We couldn’t imagine at one time that the treatment on us was done with deliberance. We took their behaviors onto ourselves because no-one is that mean(???). Then we discovered from a mental health facility, therapist, Sam Vaknin’s book, or other, that we are not nuts, that this indeed deliberant behavior has a name, and it’s called pathological narcissism. Now, I don’t see anyone here wanting to know the why’s any longer. We know the why’s. What we are here for is ourselves; our bleeding selves. This is no longer about our narcissistic partners/ex-partners or family members, it’s about healing thy self, because once we heal ourself, then we can try to help those who ask for our help.

#46

Sam,

There really IS no such condition as a “Psychopathic Narcissist”…but I wonder if YOU actually realise that?

Please stop playing Doctors and Nurses, you are 46, it isn’t cute any more.

Mariel Lee,

This forum is about Narcissisitic personality disorder, which is whatever the medical and academic community say it is, as expressed through the medium of the DSMIV, and NOT about reinventing the condition to suit yourself or promote Sam Vaknin.

GD

#47

Mariel Lee!!! Thank you!!! You absolutely hit and nail on the head and I applaud the fact that someone has finally stated the obvious. This board is about HEALING and COMPASSION and ADVICE and HELP. The “posting wars” that are going on here seem to be self-serving to the Ns involved. (wow, I know that’s going to piss off some!) We aren’t here to figure out why or how or who’s right - it doesn’t matter anymore! I love the simplicity of Dr. Phil sometimes - especially when he says “it doesn’t matter WHY it is - it IS - now, figure out how to move on” (of course, that’s paraphrased).

I can only speak for myself, but my healing involved #1 - doing enough research to understand that there is a disorder of some type with some name that causes the people we’ve been involved with to behave in a certain way - it doesn’t matter WHAT it’s called!!! #2 - accepting that I may not be able to understand it all, but realizing that that’s okay - I don’t need to be all-knowing. #3 - forgiving myself for “falling victim to”, “being conned by” - I prefer to think “being loving and open” - to someone who had this disorder. #4 - allowing myself to FEEL everything for a period of time - anger, betrayal, profound sadness, shame - all those feelings that are unique to us. #5 - coming up with my own belief that is allowing me to move on. I personally choose to believe that Ns ultimately aren’t responsible for what they’ve become - I don’t believe that they even really realize what they are doing most of the time - I don’t believe that they well ever truly be happy - THOSE are the thoughts that have really led to my “recovery”. I have been able to “forgive” him and myself, view him with compassion and simply move forward. Now, I am NOT saying that this came easily - anyone who’s read back through my posts understands the anguish this has caused me - but, the outcome, the result, the point I am at now, is what is ultimately important. Everything we do is a choice and I CHOOSE not to think about the negative, the hurt, the arguments etc. I CHOOSE to learn from this, help others, and focus on the fact that there is life after narcissism and we all will have the real, nurturing relationship we all deserve!

I wish everyone here the same peace that I have found and I truly want to stick around and help…angie

#48

Angiezee,

There really IS no “healing, compassion advice and help” in supporting the cynical exploitation of vulnerable people, nor is there in trying to browbeat and abuse anyone who calls you on it.

GD

#49

yea yea, we know

#50

Nickinstant,

So now you know, you have now excuse for behaving that way any more.

GD

#51

Its a shame that Elee who was looking for some healing and compassion felt she had to leave because when no one else was around, what she got was being told she was wrong.

I am certain you’d get quite the same reaction if you told a rape victim looking for compassion she was wrong.

Whats been going on here of late, truly…is disgusting.

Elee having removed herself not only from this discussion but from this community is proof enough to me that I suspect this forum will become ever-more difficult for survivors to get compassion.

The problem is if we all move to Hopetoday’s forum, the disgusting behaviour will be moved over there too.

I guess Femfree was right, the only way to have a place where survivors can get compassion is on a board that is heavily censored.

Wow…I never thought I’d say that.

#52

I guess Femfree was right, the only way to have a place where survivors can
get compassion is on a board that is heavily censored.

Sam:

Actually, I said it in 1999, after a year of insane attacks and flames among
members. My board was established in 1999 and Femfree’s in 2001.

Members must be protected from certain types of members: stalkers, trolls,
predators, and re-victimizers. The only way to do that is to moderate posts,
delete flames and attacks, and ban people like Gaye Dalton. Indeed, she has
been banned from numerous boards and groups.

#53

'Fraid not Phoenix,

Eele left because she encountered resistance to her intellectualized misrepresentation of NPD.

People really seldom, if ever, “look for compassion” through statements like this:

Mariel lee,
I think the lady doest protest too much…if you get my drift. Narcissists always pick at semantics because they can’t do honest reflection.elee08

GD

#54

Sam,

Your listbot board was actually established in October 1998. You closed it down to “announcement” after the tantrums you threw when I discontinued all personal association with you and went to Switzerland to live with my then partner.

From then on your “devotee’s” were largely managed on a mailing list called (initially) “The Lost Tribe” and controlled by “Cricket’s Courage, Teri, Teresa” (though there were other challengers for the position) until Daryl/Darla Boughton (aka Femfree) managed to take her place in 2001.

Why have you consistently spent 9 years publicly misrepresenting people you know to be, predatory, unscrupulous and manifest all the attributes that YOU call “Malignant Narcissism” as providing valid sources of support and healing?

GD

#55

"I guess Femfree was right, the only way to have a place where survivors can get compassion is on a board that is heavily censored." ~Phoenix

Absolutely! How much censoring a 'healing' forum needs is determined by the manager(s). Anyone who has been involved in maintaining a forum about narcissism and healing, appreciates the dedication of countless volunteers maintaining a 'safe' environment for people who need support.

We might not all agree on HOW to manage a forum of suffering people, but that's why having as many boards as possible increases people's chances of finding the right place for themselves.

Some forums are a little too pollyanna for some people's tastes. Some are a too strict, some are too lenient. At this point, there are thousands of groups determining their 'style' according to the members creating the group. I hope CarePlace can make it through this initial fracas. Most good boards I know have been through serious problems which have only refined their individual 'style' over time.

Shite-stirrers know from past experience, that they can Take A Board Down in an afternoon. It's not hard to do when members are already hypervigilent and don't know who to trust anymore. 

However, even an Ivory Tower forum pretending to be above the messiness of human emotion, quickly regresses to argumentum ad hominem in a Battle for control. Read some of the listbots between the intelligentsia of our planet and don't be intimidated. You'll soon be laughing when our mensa-giants resort to:

"I said that first!"

"No, you didn't! I did!"

"Did not!"

"Did too!"

"You're stupid!"

"Am not! Read my degrees!"

"O yea. Well, your school sucks!"

LOL...which is why I take a short-cut to the essence of their pretenses and mirror their behavior (though most likely they prefer illusions of Superior Intellect to something as honest as a "Blah blah blah" in reply to their intellectual masturbation.)

Never been into group sex and don't plan on starting at 55. Geez louise---get a motel room please.

LOL

Hang in there Phoenix! You're doing great!

CZBZ

 

#56

Then why not go to Femfree’s forums:

http://thepsychopath.freeforums.org/index.php
http://groups.msn.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/general.msnw

Instead of trying to bully and manipulate this board into being more of the same brand of agenda driven censorship, re-victimization and exploitation?

Seems the obvious solution to me.

:o)

GD

#57

Never been into group sex and don’t plan on starting at 55.

Sam:

You don’t know what you are missing (wistful).

I described my experience here:

http://samvak.tripod.com/archive18.html

#58

OMG Phoenix, I just detected a note of humility and of honesty. It is a great first step. Tis true of every single one of us. We all have virtues and we all have vices. We all do things that we should have not done, and we at times do not do things that we should have.

Welcome to the human race. Now allow your X whatever to be a human also.

#59

"You don't know what you are missing (wistful)." ~Sam

I've learned more about Sex the past couple of years than any parochial Mom would want to know. LOL! I read your linked article, Sam, and I'm still not convinced I missed out on anything. :-)

"There really IS no such condition as a "Psychopathic Narcissist"...but I wonder if YOU actually realise that? " ~Blitz

According to Ronningstam, there are three forms of pathological narcissism: Arrogant, Shy and Psychopathic NPD.

She writes, "In summary, psychopathic NPD shares the following features with the arrogant type:

-Grandiose sense of self-worth

-Exploitive behavior

-Envy

-Lack of commitment

-Impaired or lack of empathic capacity

 

Features exclusive for the psychopathic NPD types are:

-Irritability and raging reactions

-Callous and deceitful

-Cunning and manipulative behavior

-Interpersonal sadism

-Lack of remorse or guilt

-Violent behavior

-One or a few crimes

(Elsa F. Ronningstam, 2005. Identifying and Understanding the Narcissistic Personality, Pages 73 & 110)

Disagreement about Ronningstam's descriptions of the NPD ought be taken up with Elsa F. Ronningstam, Associate Clinical Professor of Psychology in the Dept. of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and an Associate Clinical Psychologist at McLean Hospital in Belmont, MA. 

CZBZ

 

#60

I do not think that this forum should deal with these issues. It is a waste
of everyone’s time.

I would be happy to respond to you OFF-FORUM.

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “mariel lee” npd-cpt3474@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] I would like a concise but detailed description of the…