Mariel Lee said:
Just curious
I’ll BET you are.
:o)
GD
(sigh) if only we could get away from the predators and the screwballs.
LOL
ahh well, a girl can dream.
By the way CZ, I know, YOU know, that we ALL know you got heart baby.
But I just wanted to offer that 3rd mango to ya again this afternoon.
I remember reading on some NPD website (not yours this time Sam, sorry) that if you ask a difficult person to have heart, they soften and their hurtful behaviour stops. If you ask a N to have heart, they actually get worse, more hurtful and nasty.
They interpret it as a WEAKNESS and a VULNERABILITY.
Sam
Violent, Vindictive, Sadistic, and Psychopathic Narcissists
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4938
----- Original Message -----
From: “thephoenix101” npd-cpt3474@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] I would like a concise but detailed description of the…
http://samvak.tripod.com/abusefamily23.html
Victims of abuse in all its forms - verbal, emotional, financial, physical,
and sexual - are often disorientated. They require not only therapy to heal
their emotional wounds, but also practical guidance and topical education.
At first, the victim is, naturally, distrustful and even hostile. The
therapist or case worker must establish confidence and rapport painstakingly
and patiently.
The therapeutic alliance requires constant reassurance that the environment
and treatment modalities chosen are safe and supportive. This is not easy to
do, partly because of objective factors such as the fact that the records
and notes of the therapist are not confidential. The offender can force
their disclosure in a court of law simply by filing a civil lawsuit against
the survivor!
The first task is to legitimise and validate the victim’s fears. This is
done by making clear to her that she is not responsible for her abuse or
guilty for what happened. Victimisation is the abuser’s fault - it is not
the victim’s choice. Victims do not seek abuse - although, admittedly some
of them keep finding abusive partners and forming relationships of
co-dependence. Facing, reconstructing, and reframing the traumatic
experiences is a crucial and indispensable first phase.
The therapist should present the victim with her own ambivalence and the
ambiguity of her messages - but this ought to be done gently,
non-judgementally, and without condemnation. The more willing and able the
abuse survivor is to confront the reality of her mistreatment (and the
offender), the stronger she would feel and the less guilty.
Typically, the patient’s helplessness decreases together with her
self-denial. Her self-esteem as well as her sense of self-worth stabilise.
The therapist should emphasise the survivor’s strengths and demonstrate how
they can save her from a recurrence of the abuse or help her cope with it
and with her abuser.
Education is an a important tool in this process of recovery. The patient
should be made aware of the prevalence and nature of violence against women
and stalking, their emotional and physical effects, warning signs and red
flags, legal redresses, coping strategies, and safety precautions.
The therapist or social worker should provide the victim with lists of
contacts - help organisations, law enforcement agencies, other women in her
condition, domestic violence shelters, and victims’ support groups both
online and in her neighbourhood or city. Knowledge empowers and reduces the
victim’s sense of isolation and worthlessness.
Helping the survivor regain control of her life is the over-riding goal of
the entire therapeutic process. With this aim in mind, she should be
encouraged to re-establish contact with family, friends, colleagues, and the
community at large. The importance of a tightly-knit social support network
cannot be exaggerated.
Ideally, after a period of combined tutoring, talk therapy, and
(anti-anxiety or antidepressant) medications, the survivor will
self-mobilise and emerge from the experience more resilient and assertive
and less gullible and self-deprecating.
These may be of help - click on the links:
The Narcissist’s Victims
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq38.html
Victim Reactions to Abuse by Narcissists and Psychopaths
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/personalitydisorders70.html
Mourning the Narcissist
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq68.html
The Three Forms of Closure
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/abuse17.html
Back to La-la Land
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal78.html
The Spouse/Mate/Partner of the Narcissist
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq6.html
Divorcing the Narcissist and the Narcissistic Psychopath - How Do I Get Rid
of Him?
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/5.html
Traumas as Social Interactions
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/trauma.html
How Victims are Affected by Abuse
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/abusefamily21.html
How Victims are Affected by Abuse - Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/abusefamily22.html
How Victims are Affected by Abuse - Recovery and Healing
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/abusefamily23.html
Surviving the Narcissist
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq80.html
The Inverted Narcissist - Codependence and Relationships with Abusive
Narcissists
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq66.html
Codependence and the Dependent Personality Disorder
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/personalitydisorders22.html
The Dependent Patient - A Case Study
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/personalitydisorders56.html
Danse Macabre - Trauma bonding and the Stockholm Syndrome
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/abusefamily.html
The Cult of the Narcissist
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal79.html
Narcissists and Personality disordered Mates, Spouses, and Partners
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5013
Projection and Projective Identification - Abuser in Denial
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5002
Approach-Avoidance Repetition Complex and Fear of Intimacy
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5000
Guilt? What guilt?
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4931
Narcissists, psychopaths, sex, and marital fidelity
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4920
The Narcissist or Psychopath Hates your Independence and Personal Autonomy
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4959
I miss him so much - I want him back!
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4934
Take care.
Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: “CZBZ” npd-cpt3474@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] I would like a concise but detailed description of the…
CZBZ said:
Listen, GD, are you truly going to argue with me about the Healing Process
I certainly am as long as you make bizarre statements like:
As long as we feel unsafe, we are not healing.
…and try to imply that people are not healing unless they “feel safe” in the totally unaccountable, unregulated and frequently predatory world of self appointed, self defined “internet support”!
…and not just because you
have been actively involved on a daily basis, helping people recover from the N-relationship? People whom I’ve maintained relationship with for five years now?
…in that same totally unaccountable, unregulated and frequently predatory world of self appointed, self defined “internet support”…
GD
CZ,
I think what you have to say is insightful, solid and well lived. It fits with everything I know about helping people in suffering. I wish you could say it in a way that doesnt grab the ear of B-Unit. Because even though you, I, and many others on this board keep saying “this isnt helping, this is hurting, this place is now unsafe because of your personal attacks, debate all you like but dont attack survivors, stop being a bully to people already in pain…”
all she hears is grabled noiseand all she says in return is “blah blah blah youre wrong, blah blah blah youre stupid, blah blah blah, youre immature, blah blah blah, youre the predators, blah blah blah, you cant be trusted, blah blah blah.”
And have you noticed she has not much kind to say to people who say over and over and over adnauseum how they were abused, but boy oh boy does she have reprimand for those who have been abused about “the poor guy being labeled a N, how can you be so arrogant, the poor guy likely is sick, has a brain injury, yoiu exploit him, youre the problem”
Yes how very wise to shame the survivor, protect the predator.
Lets all sing together “what a wonderful world…” as we continue to watch all of B-Units bombs go off.
I know its hard to understand, that it goes against every cell in our body to watch, but she is woefully stuck, and not likely to ever budge from her determination to continue hurting people who are already hurting, in a nasty sadistic way with insulting words meant to cut you were she’s studied and found to do the most damage on each one of us…and to make the people who abused us, committed crimes against us, beat us, betrayed us, stole from us, struck us – look like the poor unfortunate victims of OUR exploitation.
I have said it before and I will say it again. People with heart do not make the rape victim feel shame for exploiting the rapist. They dont even make them feel shame for having chosen to participate in the rape. Except of course the defense lawyers who are helping to make the rapist look like the poor victim of false accusations from that “shameful slut”. The ones who are trying to get the rapist off, to help him get away with something.
“But he has a head injury”
“yeah but the guy beat me and raped me.”
“Doesnt matter, you should have taken him to the doctor, not accused him of being something you dont even know for certain.”
“But I was raped by him, I had the experience, I think I do know what he is for certain.”
“So you say, but you cant prove it can you?”
(sigh)
And you dont send a rape victim to school to study courses on how to protect herself from a predator and a screwball.
(laughing at the absurd level of ridiculousness of these arguments)
and yet we argue with her like our words will change anything. All we’re really doing is arguing with the ghost of the person who hurt us to begin with. We’re feeling our blood boil because she gladly and willingly puts herself in the place of our abuser.
Didnt we walk away from that abuser awhile ago already?
Listen to me, please, everyone. We already fought that battle and we walked away alive, alert and with the ability to heal, and love again. Thats all we need. We dont need to feel our strength against another abuser, because we dont have to do this with anyone this unhealthy again.
We just dont.
I dont want to be mean and say “she’s a waste of time, a waste of oxygen, a waste of space”…because she’s not, she’s a worthy human being like any of the rest of us…but
we are wasting OUR time with her
we are wasting OUR oxygen with her
we are wasting OUR forum space with her
Seriously,
fuck the blah blah blahs.
"in that same totally unaccountable, unregulated and frequently predatory world of self appointed, self defined "internet support"... "~Blitzen
People see what they WANT to believe. I highly doubt your perceptions of Internet Support will change unless of course, you are running the forum yourself. I do recall a short list of forums you deemed to be acceptable and unbiased because of your moderating skills: http://groups.msn.com/PracticalSPIRITKeeping
There's plenty to cricitize when people make an effort to facilitate healing with something as uncharted as Online Support. Those of us who found Internet Support to be useful, are trying to understand how we might create healthier groups, increasing self-disclosure and healing.
Of course, one of the biggest problems we face is the cyberpath (or as some poignantly define: the Shite-Stirrer).
I have found that in general, people are sincere about group participation. It's rare that someone enters a group and causes trouble. When that happens, it's mighty nice to have a Delete Key on hand as a manager. (I'm sure we're both grinning now--or maybe only one of us...)
Anyway, GD, please don't assume forum managers don't know how imperfect our approach may be; but we are willing to learn through our mistakes & our successes. The important character trait nurturing women like myself might have, is the abilty to accept criticism, to be willing to LEARN and most of all, to be resilient enough To Try.
Being a critic is easy, GD. And it's SAFE, isn't it?
CZ
CZBZ Said:
I highly doubt your perceptions of Internet Support will change unless of course, you are running the forum yourself. I do recall a short list of forums you deemed to be acceptable and unbiased because of your moderating skills: http://groups.msn.com/PracticalSPIRITKeeping
Hardly my fault if I can’t find anyone running an online support forum that is within a country mile of safe now is it? I’m not going to lie about it, why should I?
I was made a moderator of http://groups.msn.com/PracticalSPIRITKeeping as a courtesy, it was only ever set up to be a small group of people who were prepared to validate their identities to each other by phone (you would be AMAZED how hard it is to have “thousands of members” when you WANT to keep the sockpuppets out). If anyone ever wants to post there I will keep it safe or die trying…
It’s certainly not my job to enable people like you to prey on vulnerable people…because, CZBZ, preying is ALL you are doing, and we both know that.
You are so incandescently insincere yourself WHO CARES what you have to say about “healing” and internet forums? Because you have proved over and over that you will say whatever it takes to get your own way and further your own agenda and you don’t give a damn how many lies you tell or people you hurt to get that.
You come here and display that, blatantly, EVERY SINGLE DAY.
GD
Phoenix said:
Phoenix (real victim of abuse looking toward real bully’s direction) : I dont know B-Unit why dont you ask me and I’ll tell you?
I am not the one who gets up and starts sniping first thing almost every morning until she gets some attention, you are.
GD
I dont know about you all, but I’d rather be in conversation with a real honest to goodness person, no a machine, not a talking book, not a wind up Punch-Me doll, but a real person with real feelings that can not just feel but emote more than bitterness and power struggle.
I’d like for my relational energy to go into people who are worth my time. One of my dearest wisest friends from a number of years ago asked “when are you going to start choosing people who are worthy of you?”
That queston came at just the right time, the perfect storm of good abundant energy for change, and by golly I did start choosing better. Its too bad she didnt ask me that BEFORE I met my ex, although who knows, I’d have probably chosen him anyway, he presented as such a sincere, romantic, good guy.
I dont like being treated like an object, like a flat 2-dimensional thing, like one of those rolled up silver screens we used to have in our classrooms for filmstrips…remember those?
And so its no wonder this place feels so impossible to relate to each other as people, even though we’re trying our damnedest to do that as B-Unit continues belching toxic smoke…because she projects every vulnerable, sore, Achiles-heel, deeply injured part of herself and turns it around about us.
There is no capability in her to see us, nor to hear us. She is incapable, so please stop trying to get her to understand your point of view, to defend yourself or to try and get her to see you. It wont happen. She does not have the capability. As she admitted to me the other night in private discussion, she trusts no one, and feels she can only rely on herself, to protect herself, and in order to do that she has to hurt everyone else preemptively and to keep hurting them. I dont think she likes doing that, I dont think she likes being an abuser, I think she merely wants to protect herself from abuse, but that means she has to do that by hurting everyone else. She hasnt figured out how to do that in any other productive way. And it would require more than we could possibly do to help her with that work.
We’re not doing her any good either by addressing her. I shouldnt even be refering to her except as much as I request that we leave her alone, I can see she si too skillful at triggering our “stuff” for us to ignore her.
You cant tell her enough about how you yourself were abused, to have her believe that you are anything but an abuser out to victimize and bully her.
You cant.
Youre a flat screen to her, onto which she is showing us what exists in her world. Theres only pain there. You will never be anything else.
Its impossible.
To try is fruitless.
Phoenix,
There is no capability in her to see us, nor to hear us
I think the problem is more that I DO see you, and I DO hear you, but as you are…not as the lie you want to live.
I’m not going to lie and say “I’ve got nothing against you” because my blood boils when I think of you playing on disadvantaged kids the way you try to play on people here…
Defrauding them of their trust with your big “I am so caring and compassionate act” (Because as hard as they are, they are still too young and too alone to recognize that “caring and compassionate” people don’t usually need to be center stage all the time, and besides, what has a street kid got to lose?) and then shafting them, as hard as you can, whenever they do not uphold your colorful illusions about yourself.
Anything you have tried to do to me has been done too many times before, by experts, and I am sure some of the kids you work with could say the same, I know I could at their age…I see you coming and I see clean through you…
But you must literally destroy some of the kids you work with this way.
You don’t care, you don’t have to, all you have to do to make the boo boo better is to create ANOTHER lie about yourself and force everybody you can to pretend to believe it.
GD
I’m very sad someone fucked you up so bad such a long time ago. I suspect its someone who said they cared about you and wanted you to trust them. I fear they destroyed you in some way shape or form. I get very sad when I ask people to turn away from you because i suspect having people turn their backs to you must add to the pain you always feel.
I told you privately, do not trust me. You need infalible, perfectly reliable person who really does care about you. And I’m too human, too fallible, too unreliable to fill that bill. I will surely disappoint you as I sit here.
I honoured your need to be distrustful.
And to this very moment I respect your need to protect yourself. I’m glad, if there was no one to protect you when you were helpless and vulnerable, that you are a warrior armoured and armed to the hilt. Above all else, protect yourself.
You havent yet, and you will not get anything but my support in that.
I trust YOU to do that without fail. Its obvious you will not fail yourself, nor would I want you to.
HOwever,
you are not the only abuse survivor here. You are not the only one here who has been injured by someone they wanted to trust, someone they cared about. In that, you are in good company. There are many of injured bodies here.
I would have liked you to have seen what I was pointing to many times. NOt that I am trustworthy, or a leader, or the star of the show, or that I know everything, or that I hate you…but that I was pointing to all the other children in the sandbox with you. They, like you have been hurt, deeply, repeatedly, some in worse ways than others, some for longer than others. Look at them see the bruises on their faces? the scars on their arms? see how their trust was violated too? like you?
But you wont look. You wont hear when they tell their stories. You want to believe youre the only one here worth protecting.
And youre not.
Everyone else in the sandbox with you is worthy of it…including me…I too am a child in the sandbox.
I’ve been trying to get you to stop attacking the other bruised and battered playmates here.
And now, nobody has anything to say to you except “leave us alone, stop being mean, youre awful”.
I didnt do that, I just asked you to stop hurting other people. To look at the other hurt people…and stop hurting them.
Thats the thing with bullies. I know, theyr ekids who get beaten and abused, told theyre shit and worthless at hom,e, by the people they need to believe love them, and then they come to school and find the saddest, smallest, meekest kids and kick their face in, threaten them, attack them verbally.
I dont like that soemthing SO bad happened to you that youre that heavily armored up, I wish someone could have been there to say stop.
I’m here amongst everyone else whom YOU are hurting, and saying STOP.
I’ve written to careplace helpdesk and asked them to remove you, not because I think youre a monster, but because while you are in this sandbox, you will not stop hurting others. And that means you should go.
I wanted the message to get through to you by our words, but its proven fruitless. I and a few others have asked you privately and with dignity to please stop, but you refuse.
I dont see any other otpions for this place. The bully has to be removed from the sandbox, or she stays and we all leave to find another place to convene.
I’m sad thats what its come to for me. there might be more voices to echo mine to show you its not me trying to control you, but a good number have already moved to the next playground. Perhaps the ones who remain could either let you know if they feel the same way as me, or differently.
Phoenix,
From what you have written me privately, I think your preference is to be in conversation with juveniles and immature adults.
Your friend asked you an excellent question. Did you go irrational and scream at them, throw names like knives, because they dared to suggest to you that YOU make choices in your life that bring problems upon yourself?
As far as your boyfriend, you are not being honest, which is what Blitxen I think has tried telling you. You know, it makes no difference to her or I if you are honest. The benefit of your doing that is to you. You may think people being honest back at you is mean, but it really is not.
More name calling here. You know Phoenix, I cannot help but wonder that some of your problems in your relationship very likely had much to do with how you deal with other people and your use of name calling in exchanges with them. It is very immature and nonproductive to say the least.
As far as trusting people, the Bible states not to put your faith in the arm of man because he will fail you. That is not to be mean, it is not to cynical, it rather is to reflect the infallibility of man. We each will fail others at some time or place. Learn the lesson or not. Just do not expect everyone to feel sorry for you because your trust in a criminal was betrayed. As I told you, you knew what he did to other people. You aided him in that. Why in the world would you expect others to feel sorry for you when he turned around and did it to you? It is not going to come from me for sure. That is not because I judge. It is not because I believe you are beyond redemption or forgiveness. It rather is that you reeped what you sowed and you now pay the consequences. I will not cut the bill for you.
You cannot manipulate Blitxen because she is not stupid and that is what frustrates you the most about her.
Blitzen/Sushiejo (B-Unit)
Do not talk about things of my life without knowing what I lived, knowing how I loved, knowing how i was abused.
To do so shows your ignorance and arrogance and noone is believing you but yourself…and thats likely not even the case.
Protect your broken spirit by all means. Do not attack me in order to do that.
Stop being a bully.
Phoenix said:
Do not talk about things of my life without knowing what I lived, knowing how I loved, knowing how i was abused.
I am not blind, I see how you behave habitually, and that is all I need to know.
GD
And so has everyone else here B-Unit. Thats why I have confidence everyone can see the goodness where theres goodness, and malevolence where there is malevolence. I have no worries that your accusation and attacks on my character will go unbelieved by those who in this sandbox matter to me.
Phoenix 101, you are allowing yourself to get sucked back in. It is obvious that the two are one in the same people.
Is this person the victim or the culprit? Are you aware that narcissism also goes hand and hand with other disorders?
Not answering this person is a commitment to your healing. Can you honestly see any difference between the person you are trying to heal from and this person here?
Mariel, she’s insidious isnt she? hahaha! Here I am asking everyone to ignore her, and I let her, with both her multiple personalities to suck me in.
Point well made. I should just wait quietly and with patience for B-Unit to be removed from this forum, or for everyone to figure out where the rest of us have gone where it is free from this kind of vile crap !
Yer a cutie, thank you Mariel
“Nobody can hurt me without my permission.â€Â
Mahatma Gandhi
Mariel, she’s insidious isnt she? hahaha! Here I am asking everyone to ignore her, and I let her, with both her multiple personalities to suck me in.
Point well made. I should just wait quietly and with patience for B-Unit to be removed from this forum, or for everyone to figure out where the rest of us have gone where it is free from this kind of vile crap !
“Nobody can hurt me without my permission.â€Â
Mahatma Gandhi
Well maybe I spoke too soon Phoenix. But I again see hope in you.
It is stupid (and immature) to tell everyone else to ignore someone. Goes with the name calling. You know, those are easy bad habits to break. This is why you should not be working with young people. And it is also not going to get you anywhere to make someone else responsible for your actions. Who sucked you in? you initiate the posts directed at Blitxen and myself saying horrible things. You email us directly. When it is flipped back at you, oh boo hoo boo hoo, poor you" Everybody feel sorry for poor victim Phoenix. Who is sucking who Phoenix?
Read your Gandhi quote. Read it again. And read it again. Than apply it to yourself. It’s about personal responsibility.