Is it POSSIBLE to hurt a narcissist?

Narcissistic personality disorder
#1

Hi everyone. I stumbled across this group several months ago when I was preparing to leave a 2-year relationship. As with so many others here, it was like a spot-light had been shined on my ex-boyfriend that illuminated so many things about him that I couldn’t explain. Suddenly, so many odd behaviours were not “just his way”, I was NOT crazy - it all made sense for the first time (I will add the disclaimer here that I am NOT a health care professional, he has NOT been diagnosed as NPD, I am simply referring to narcisstic BEHAVIOUR that he exhibited). Well, it’s been about four months and I am attempting to move on with my life. It took a couple of months for him to “get it” that we had broken up. In fact, for him, it seemed nothing had really changed!! (he lives on the East coast in the States, I am West coast Canada. It was long distance for the first year, then he moved out here. After the breakup he went back to e-mailing me, and calling me in basically the same way that we had when we started dating, despite the fact that I told him I didn’t want to. He was constantly “updating” me on what was going on his life. Eventually I had to spell it out for him “DO NOT CONTACT ME ANYMORE”. It’s been about a month since I heard from him, which is finally giving me some time to process everything) Well, as I said, I am TRYING to move on but I am left feeling just, ANGRY. Very, very, very ANGRY!!! Angry at him. Angry at myself for being with him, for not seeing this sooner. And it doesn’t seem to be going away. I think because of the fact that he seems to be completely unaffected by the breakup!!! I mean, we were supposed to get married. I was going to give up my job, my apartment, EVERYTHING and move to the US to be with him. When we broke up he essentially said “Oh well”, shrugged, and that was about it. If there is a label of a “detached” narcissist, that would be him.

I guess I am asking the question: is there anything I can say to him to hurt him? Not in a malicious way so much, but… I feel that part of the reason I am SO angry is that I’ve never really had the opportunity to GET IT OUT (he was in Europe when we broke up so I told him over the phone. I won’t go into why - not enough room - but basically I had had enough of his emotional detachment.) When I told him our relationship was over, his reaction was (and this is a DIRECT quote): “I suppose I’ll be sad in a few minutes”. That pretty much describes him to a “T”!!! So we break up, he goes back to his old life, back “underwater” as he would describe himself in moments of clarity, and I sit here and stew and go over everything in my head (and over, and over, and over) with no resolution. I still have some of his belongings that I have to send to him. I am fantasizing about including one of the books about narcissism I have read with the pertinent areas highlighted and asking him to read it. Is this just totally pathetic of me??? I KNOW I need to let this go but… I don’t know how! If I did that, and he actually DID read it, would it have ANY effect on him? When we were together, the worst thing I could ever do to him was to point out the gaping chasm between reality, and HIS version of the way things were. When he would ever admit that there was a disparity there (and it was VERY rare) he would be furious with me, and try to make me feel guilty “do you feel GOOD now? Do you ENJOY humiliating me?” etc. He would eventually go back to his “fantasy land” and the reality would be conveniently forgotten.

The bottom line question: IS there any point in trying to get him to see any of this about himself??? How many narcissists are self-aware???

thanks to everyone in advance for any advice, and to Sam for so much insight into this (I read your descriptions of yourself, so many of them could have been written by my ex - it was kind of eerie)

  • J -
#2

Dear Mauskateer:

I am responding to you because my first boyfriend ( as my father and
brother are my N’s)
acted very similarly. We dated off and on age 18-23. We were born
at the EXACT same time, June 19th, 1968 and became very, very close.
By the end, I couldn’t imagine living my life with out him. He also
had to move to Europe and was vague about the reasons (deported as he
was a swiss citizen). I KNEW in my heart of hearts that he loved me
deeply. (He would tell my roommate at the time how much he did and
all his friends), but when it came down to it he couldn’t really tell
me. He told me that “love” was an over used word.

Now we were VERY YOUNG, I agree. But I remember the indifference and
the peculiar behavior like it was yesterday. I remember THE LAST
thing I told him in my volkwagon golf in 1990, " YOU WILL ALWAYS
REGRET THIS". Low and behold two years after we broke up, he got a
complete stranger pregnant that he met in a bar ( In Geneva), no love
connection, thoughtless one night stand. AND HE MARRIED HER.

When I was pregnant with my first son in 1999, there was a knock at
my door. My EX came to visit me out of the blue. I was eight months
pregnant at the time, so their was no room for an affair,
literally… But he just came and stared for 20 minutes and said
he missed talking with me so much. I should have just kicked him
out, but I WANTED CLOSURE. To NO AVAIL… I told my husband about
this visit.

HE NEVER GAVE ME CLOSURE, because I think he knew DEEP DOWN that he
had made the worst mistake of his life, but he would NEVER admit it.
Then years later (2005),my fax machine had been ringing psychotically
all week long. I had “flashes” of this must be my ex, but I had no
caller ID. There
was no reason for my fax machine to ring so often because I had shut
down my home office business. Day four I went to pick up my kids at
camp, AND THERE HE WAS. His daughter was at camp at the same place.
He had moved back to the states that week and he admitted that he had
been trying to contact me since he got off the plane. I had SHIVERS
down my spine. He had been stalking me. His wife was there (couldn’t
speak a word of english as she was from South America). I felt SO
strange. He continued to call me as he asked for my cell phone
number. I tried to have an honest conversation and give this saga
peace, but he wouldn’t get to the REASON for his calls. Ambiguous,
indifferent, detached, vague.

Then WHY are you calling me? I was obsessed with KNOWING, and he
wouldn’t give me the answer. It finally came to a head last November
when he wanted me to come and
meet him for coffee where he and his wife would be. I would pretend
that I was helping her with a spanish
children’s book, as I was in the industry (although I had stopped 2
years prior). But he admitted that he just wanted to see me, putting
both his wife an me in a very awkward situation. I declined. I
finally BLEW A GASKET an told him off via email ( which I am sure he
was enraged about because it was on his yahoo account). I gave it
closure all right. But again, indifference was his response. And he
has disappeared once more…

SO WHAT DID HE POSSIBLY WANT FROM ME? Did he EVER love me? I will
never know…
On Nov 10, 2007, at 5:02 AM, mausketeer wrote:

#3

Sure it’s possible. Click on these links:

http://samvak.tripod.com/journal68.html

http://samvak.tripod.com/journal86.html

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq73.html

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq81.html

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “mausketeer” npd-cpt6701@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 11:02 AM
Subject: [npd] Is it POSSIBLE to hurt a narcissist?

#4

I think I mentioned Eric Berne’s account of the victim, savior, persecutor (abuser) game before. One problem with taking such a focus of ones experiences in life is that the roles switch around. The victim can become the abuser, often with the savior’s help, and the persecutor become the victim.

#5

((((Mausketeer))))

Thats a heartbreaking story that I think many of us can identify with in some form or another. I wish there were some words I could send that would make the anger just go away so you could be washed over with some cool waters of quiet and calm. I wasnt able to figure that out for myself, but I do remember many times when I just embraced the anger.

It felt a whole lot more powerful and strong than the sadness, grief and longing.

You’ve lost something big. And while you had it, it hurt.

I just am remembering that scene in that old Kung Fu series, when GrassHopper has to carry the searingly hot kettle with the dragons on it, by grasping it with his inner arms, only to have the images scarred into him for life.

The pain you felt in your relationship likely hurt a whole helluva lot, and maybe like me, the pain of coming to the point of ending it, and the period of time that follows it hurts EVEN MORE.

Its shitty thats for sure. We want relief, even if its acting out our anger, we just want some kind of relief from the pressure of the building emotions, and the pain.

But I think other survivors here who have more time under their belt than me might agree with me…the pain after breaking up is like grasping that searing hot kettle.

Feel it, cry, write here, yell in a forest, whine to your friends, file away angry emails you could have sent, send out as much of that emotion as you can in whatever ways you want- but embrace that this is the trial-by-fire you get to stand strong in enduring,

and when its over and the healing has taken place over time (and who knows, with therapy perhaps) you’ll have some scars you’ll carry through your life, but they’ll remind you how you made it through, how you had the tenacity, the will, the fortitude to endure this pain to get to a more glorious future.

ha!

Maybe we should call you GrassHopper? :wink:

I felt like you did MANY times, and I sent all those emails, and I got something from it for myself, but I ALSO was paid for those sins by more hurtful stuff coming from my ex. I cant say it was worth it. But I dont beat myself up for having done it either. I hope you dont email or call him, but if you do, you’ll survive that too, and we’ll be here to hear the story and offer support and understanding.

I’m sorry you’re living the worse part now. But I can tell you, its only a matter of holding on tightly to yourself before things start getting better :slight_smile:

I’m glad youre here.

#6

Actually I beg to differ on Narcissism…but as you won’t be doing it any more I won’t bother posting links (I check :o) ).

I think you are missing the point on choosing something personal to call him…it’s not about being positive, or losing sight of abuse, it is about remembering not to dehumanize people by separating them from the abuse…

It doesn’t have to be positive, just neutral and personal…

Just to remind yourself that you do not intend to forget this is an actual human being too.

GD

#7

Mausketeer,

Why would you want to hurt him back? That would be a reflection of who you are, not him. And it is not really the most mature way to deal with problems and relationships with others.

Self awareness, introspection, abilities to properly assess cause and effect in relationships, are mental processes of people with normal, fully functioning brains. When you get into more serious problems such as narcissistic personality disorder, the person usually has great difficulty with these functions. If they did not, they most likely would not have a problem in the first place.

#8

I was just thinking. I cant speak for N’s or your ex Maus, but I can tell you I recognized times when my partner was scared, and when he was upset. I am not sure I ever saw him hurt. In fact I’m not sure I can recall him ever using the word in regards to himself. But then he was a tough bad boy, I think those guys put a lot of effort into being impervious to pain.

I wish I could give you an answer to your question.

I’d be interested to know what your fantasy is of hurting him.

I imagined so many times, telling him the things I needed to know he HEARD about what he did to me. I imagined he would just listen and not say a word. I imagined he’d feel his heart sink, shame in his face maybe, and sadness fill his eyes. I imagined I’d see a tear, maybe two and him say softly “I’m sorry I did that to you.”

And I imagined him the next day or the next week or the next time he was deeply disappointed in something or upset he lost something valuable, or he felt all alone and threatened, that he’d remember me and think “I wish I hadnt screwed that up. I wish she was still here.”

I got the first in a brief visit 8 months after our breakup. That fantasy was realized and it took me by surprise and to this day I think that was the most brief but most valuable thing he ever said to me in 8 years.

I’ll never know the second part of that fantasy, but it was enough to play the movie over in my head a 100 times in order to feel like I got to 'see" it enough, I didnt need to “see” it anymore.

I hope, whatever way you can work out your anger, that its not going to bring anymore pain to you. And I’m hoping you get enough periods of calm and relief that you can build on.

Wanting to level the playing field by making things equal, especially when its been painfully in the favour of your ex, is a perfectly reasonable desire.

#9

I did see sadness in my N first boyfriend’s eyes a few times and I
would always translate. Emotions were literally a foreign industry
to him. But for some reason he just couldn’t come to
realize who he was dealing with. I had the GAMUT of emotion. His
gamut was about 1/4. I would always try and pause to see if HE WOULD
express what he was feeling, but it always seem to come out of me. I
still think he may have had asperger’s and not narcissism. He was
DEFINITELY an enigma and always will be. I spent too many years
analyzing his bullshit. I am too old to care anymore, but I will be
very sad if he dies before me.

On Nov 10, 2007, at 10:16 AM, thephoenix101 wrote:

#10

Narcissists and emotions

http://samvak.tripod.master.com/texis/master/search/?q=emotions

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “bup” npd-cpt6701@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Is it POSSIBLE to hurt a narcissist?

#11

Sam,

Why have you consistently spent 9 years publicly misrepresenting people you know to be, predatory, unscrupulous and manifest all the attributes that YOU call “Malignant Narcissism” as providing valid sources of support and healing?

GD

#12

Phoenix and BUP,

I believe these abusers feel most emotions, but mostly the negative emotions. The positive emotions are the happiness that they feel when “all’s right with their world”. Because there were many times when the exNP and I would be sitting outside, nice weather, a beer in his hand (of course), a cool breeze, and he would say, "This is really nice. " He actually felt calmness, I believe.

But the great majority of the emotions the exNP exhibited were negative. Anger, jealousy, fear, distrust, etc. He was always trying to prove that I didn’t care. That I was just what he thought I was. He would rationalize everything , coloring it with distrust and jealousy. He had a lot of negative emotions.

I don’t label him as an NPD or ASPDer. Because, of course, he will never be diagnosed (nothing wrong with HIM, you know). So he is just a massive, inconsiderate “J” (J for jerk). But he does have two ASPD daughters, and one BPD daughter ( all psych eval diagnosed). So “the apple doesn’t fall too far from the tree.”

To be fair, I have to mention that he has a closed head injury when he was 3 years old, and he had a stroke, leaving his right side weaker than the left. It also affected his reading ability, he read poorly. And his impulse control was nonexistent, which caused all kinds of events that he later regretted. So call it epilepsy, call it NPD, call it what you will, he was a major control freak abuser with massive emotion, all of it negative.

wahela

#13

wahela

The correct term for your x is TBI - Traumatic Brain Injury.

#14

Can you IMAGINE what this must be like to live with:

he has a closed head injury when he was 3 years old, and he had a stroke, leaving his right side weaker than the left. It also affected his reading ability, he read poorly. And his impulse control was nonexistent, which caused all kinds of events that he later regretted.

Poor sod…imagine growing up, and starting school “post stroke”??

Doesn’t bear thinking about.

Personally I would strongly discourage anyone from getting into a relationship with someone like that, truth is there is no realistic chance of a good prognosis, at least in terms of an healthy emotional life, and it is all WAY TOO SERIOUS for any romanticisation or “love conquers all” thinking…

It would also be obvious at the dating stage.

Even so, when we fall in love, sometimes we bite off more than we can chew, and I would be the LAST person to say “you made your bed, now lie in it”…

Still…to live with all this:

he has a closed head injury when he was 3 years old, and he had a stroke, leaving his right side weaker than the left. It also affected his reading ability, he read poorly. And his impulse control was nonexistent, which caused all kinds of events that he later regretted.

…and THEN to to find yourself one day being objectified as “the N”, and having the complete works of Sam Vaknin (and all who sail with him) attributed to you, by someone who once claimed to love you, seems the unkindest cut of all.

It’s also very uneccessary…

All you had to say is:

“What happened to you was so unfair, but I am not responsible for it, and I tried my best but I honestly cannot do this any more…goodbye”

GD

#15

go easy on pit bulls - poodles bite just as much

wahela npd-cpt6701@lists.careplace.com wrote: I consider him similar to a tornado or a pit bull.

Rene

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#16

Well, it was tragic and it was sad. I could see the damage in the inner child of this man. And of course, I could see that love could conquer all.

Susiejo, I never mentioned any personality disorder or label to this person. I left him, told him what my therapist at the time and I decided (good guy, my therapist), that "if you actively go in to therapy with a therapist, take anger management classes and verifiably quit drinking, for six months, we can begin to date on Saturday nights. If after one year of verifiable therapy, anger management and abstaining from alcohol, we can begin marriage counselling.

Well, he went to one meeting with a therapist, went to two more meetings of AA, and 3 days after I moved out, he started dating his physical therapist (from an ACL tear surgery, he was her patient at the time, lol). So he essentially decided for himself.

It wasn’t my place to tell him what he was, what he could be, or what my label was. I did none of these. I merely said that I cannot live this way any longer and I left.

I have learned that you cannot make the chronically unhappy, happy again. IT is either within them, or it is not. After 7 years of family therapy, nothing ever changed. Then both stepdaughters were diagnosed BPD, ASPD with thrill seeking.

It IS tragic. And I do not harbor ill feelings against him anymore. I consider him similar to a tornado or a pit bull. It isn’t personal, its business as usual. I am no longer angry at him, he is living his life, and I am again living my life. And the two do not belong together.

wahela

#17

That being so, would you be prepared to humor me and stop objectifying him as the “exNP” and referring to his abuse as “Narcissism”?

I do see that it would be absolutely out of the question to name people (for SO many reasons), but it is very easy to create a personalised, humanized name for them from something dear or special to them…

For instance, one might refer to my late father (an incredibly abusive man) as the “pianoman” because the piano was the great love of his life…to do so makes a PERSON of him, not an object…

GD

#18

I will refrain from calling him the exNP and will call him my “ex abuser” if you will try to be a bit more patient with us people that don’t use the proper labels.

I have never called his abuse “narcissism”. I call it abuse. He was abusive, he had no impulse control, he regularly tried to push me out of moving cars, he “walked through” people, knocking them down all the time (even small children), he was very abusive. i ahve never called his behavior narcissism.

Heck, if that’s all it takes to get you into pleasant mode, I will call him the ex abuser forever after. I believe I am right, we are label arguing. ARguing over the label, not the behavior or the person.

wahela

#19

Well, since I lived with the ex abuser for 9 years, I am quite positive that I saw the humanity within him, because that was what drew me back over and over again. I saw him angry, I saw him sad, I saw him scared. Well, it took me 9 years to realize that no matter what one does for another, you can’t make 'em happy. I played Edith Bunker to his ARchie for so long, I thought it was what a happy little housewife was supposed to do.

I realize that there are people that demonize their abuser. And my posts against that stand on their own. You just have to go look through the last 5 years of NPD to find them. Nps is now a closed forum.

I don’t care who makes money, who uses what inital. All I care about in my life is that I am happy with my life. I am a nurse. I care for people all the time. I make a difference in my world. I never bring up the abuse with anyone that I know. It is my past.

What I care about now with regards to the forums is that people learn why they stayed, why they put up with abuse and how they can move forward. And I am partially retired from that now. My life is taking precedence. I’m just shocked at the lack of compassion here. I’m not talking about lack of compassion for Sam, I am talking about the attacking of everybody just because we use an improper word. If you all had gone to the msn forums and read what we had written, you would know that all of us from the msn forums here, CZBZ, Sandahl and I , no longer give a fig for the abusers and their ways. We are trying to help the victims of abuse move forward and let all that crap go.

wahela

#20

Then why have you being striving to deny his humanity so long?

I am personally stunned at the lack of compassion people here show in striving to manipulate facts in order to exploit and/or have a sense of “control” over vulnerable people…

It certainly wouldn’t be very “compassionate” of me to pretend to support or reinforce THAT now would it?

GD