Don’t you just LOVE this mutual hate-fest?
Don’t you feel liberated, finally standing up to a narcissist without
flinching, or cowering, or palpitating?
Thank you for being there. And thank me for being here. (laughing)
Sam
PS:
I hand-pick the links I post in order to answer your questions and concerns
to the fullest.
WILL YOU GET REAL!!
You have been pestering people with the same stock lists of links to promote yourself at the slightest excuse for years…people aren’t stupid, they NOTICE that stuff, and they tend to refrain from admiring it.
GD
what is liberating is being FREE of a mutual hate fest
its being FREE of arguing and struggling with someone to be seen
and understood
with kindness
thats what liberation is
I have no desire to hate you Sam. Except for having been rude and antagonizing to me publicly and privately a couple times, you are not on my life’s horizon.
I want, right now, to hate the person who said he was going to marry me, and protect me and my son from harm but who instead D&D’d me numerous times, and assaulted me physically in a way I can never prove in court and have him punished for. Who instead of being kind and supportive as I sat with a family member alone as she died over 3 days, couldnt be bothered to say anything to me on the phone or in email or send flowers to the funeral but instead posted blogs about his motorcycle diaries. Who wasnt there when I had to terminate our pregnancy, by myself. Who cheated on me, lied to me, had his friends lie to me, got my best friend to lie to me all the while telling me I wasnt doing enough, giving enough, changing enough.
You are nobody to me to hate or argue with.
So your insistence on being a scapegoat or projection screen and then claiming thats your positive role in life completely misses the point of your existence.
You wrote a book that helped some people, hurt some others. Take the good about that with you. Be satisified. We all have positive contributions to make in life. You made yours.
All this other stuff you do, only detracts from the positive, its unraveling the tapestry you made.
If you really want to help survivors, relate to them, dont throw links at them. I know that is whats most dificult for you, but give it a college try.
Impress us.
Remember what it was like to feel agony and then recognize that in us when we talk about it.
Phoenix,
I have come to the conclusion that Sam Vaknin has never learned what it is like to feel ANY kind of a pain, let alone agony…
…unless you count the self pitying pain of being denied his own way?
I mean this very seriously, and sincerely.
GD
Blitzen,
I dont know if he does. I can imagine my exN wont allow himself to feel it, but that doesnt mean it isnt there. I think its a matter of pouring all his internal energy to make sure what he felt once, that he wasnt strong enough to tolerate, he doesnt ever want to feel again, and so the N/ASP system of being.
I’m giving all N’s the benefit of the doubt that maybe, just once they did know something so painful it overwhelmed them.
I wouldnt know for certain that isnt the case with him.
but I dont need to know either.
Phoenix,
I am with you all the way on that - in most cases, but I don’t think Sam is really a Narcissist…
I don’t think he was born that human.
GD
Pheonix:
Do you think that my father’s Narcissism was directly caused by his
brother’s suicide? Is narcissism
usually the result of reaction to suicide?
On Oct 23, 2007, at 6:24 PM, thephoenix101 wrote:
Bup,
That seems likely to me…
If you don’t mind me asking, how old were your father and his brother when he took his life?
That would seem significant.
GD
Bup,
I dont know. I know I workd alongside some men and women in therapy training who lost a parent to abandonment or suicide and it had an all-pervasive impact on how they felt about themselves and how they related to the world and everyone else in it.
I dont ever underestimate the impact childhood trauma has on anyone. In fact I marvel just about everyday when I learn the story about someone I know that I never would have guessed, and despite trauma they still find it in themselves to be funny, and kind and a pleasure to know.
And I’m humbled everytime someone damaged that I work with makes the heart pounding, scary decision to choose a different path than the self-destructive one they know so well, when they tentatively start to believe in themselves as worthwhile human beans 
I have faith in humanity, I have faith in men, in fact I love the company of men. My ex hasnt killed that in me.
The only thing he killed was my faith in him…my hope in him…my love for him.
I hope you find enough of the answers that you can feel settled and find the ground under your feet again after having been traumatized.
I have faith in your Bup
My Brother, the Narcissist, was born the SAME year as my dad’s
brother’s suicide… 1963… This
is the more significant part… Yes, I know… fits like
a puzzle piece… I was born in 68…
On Oct 23, 2007, at 6:46 PM, blitzen wrote:
So your father was a grown man already when his brother commmitted suicide?
In that case I would feel more inclined to the idea the whatever sowed the earliest seeds of your brother’s suicide also messed up your father…
But your brother…all my red flags jumped up at once even BEFORE I had time to think.
So many dysfunctional feelings must have wound up invested in your brother by your father…perhaps like developing a relationship with his baby son in some kind of rebound frame of mind, if that makes sense?
Apart from which, babies learn so much SO FAST…you wouldn’t know how much he would have unconsciously absorbed from the suicide itself.
GD
Phoenix, some people actually do not feel particular emotions. I know within myself, I was always very low in jealousy feelings compared to others. It has nothing to do with how I was raised, how I think, it is all about the emotional physical feeling. I just very rarely ever felt that emotion in reaction to stimuli that most others would normally feel jealousy. Another thing about me was that I could remember a person’s phone number hearing it once. But it has always taken me forever to remember a person’s name. I really cannot blame my mother for that - at least not directly. I mean maybe it was genetics, maybe her prenatal diet, maybe what she fed me as a child when my brain was developing, maybe I fell out of the high chair and damaged my brain when she was not looking. I do not know the answer - it is just aspects of who I am.
Emotions are physical - largely functions of neurotransmitters and metabolism which is why psychiatric drugs work for many and can have devastating effects on others. I tell those who challenge me to consider alcohol and mood altering drugs. Do you take the emotions of a person who is high or wasted seriously? No - we say oh they were drunk and did not know what they were doing. Do you act and feel the same on drugs/alcohol as you would otherwise? No. So neurotransmitters and metabolism are the mechanisms of action of these drugs. Those things are indisputably factors.
Emotions can also be changed by diet, supplements, exercise, sleep, and external stimuli. A person who is being physically beaten every day by a spouse is not going to be feeling the same as one who is not. But then not always. And that is a catch. Learning does affect emotions - probably even those considered innate such as fear, but that is not all at play. The other aspects that are also significant players are the physical brain and the nervous system that runs from head to toe. They are probably the most important and must be healthy. If not, all the other means nothing. What emotion does the guy in the coma display? The scientists are trying to figure out how ALL those mechanics are involved and at play. It is not just upbringing and conditioning. They do not have THE answer and neither does Sam who is a very sad joke actually.
When you peg a narcissist, you are identifying particular behaviors and then categorizing. That is all the DSM does and then it is x number of these qualities. I am sure you have seen people with personality disorders go through various different diagnosis depending on the therapist. Subjectivism? And what does the label matter? All of us would fall under several different ones.
So lets take empathy which underlies the experiences of most of us who are here. It is an emotion and a brain process. My heart to you for your hurt and feelings from that guy you love very much. But what I First wonder whether he is a narcissist as opposed to a guy that really finds you convienent. If he is a narcissist, than it would follow that he has trouble feeling empathy for your feelings. And if so, than he would make bad judgment calls on when he should be there for you and when he shouldn’t. That would not mean that he did not care. It would not mean that he did not love you. It would not mean that he was a psychopath, etc.
It would mean that there is something wrong in his mental process of feeling that emotion and there could be many reasons for that beyond his simply being raised by a bad mother. Are you following me?
I agree Susiejo. I think it is a brain function which has not been
addressed soon enough by a mother who
knows that it is not right to behave in such a manner… Similar
to Asperger’s but not quite. I wonder
if there is a brain scan for NPD. It would be interesting to study
and evaluate…
On Oct 23, 2007, at 8:43 PM, susiejo wrote:
Aspergers isn’t like that Bup…
It’s nothing to do with mothering, it is a congenital difference that occurs totally independently of environment.
Of course, the right kind of nuturing parenting can help you cope with it, and abuse exacerbates it…
But then you could say THAT about being normal too. :o)
I’d would be the first to say that a psychopath may well be in a slightly different part of the autism spectrum…though people with Aspergers and high function autism have highly developed consciences and emotions (the difficulties only really affect communication and interactive skills).
Narcissistic Personality Disorder itself would seem to be almost entirely environmental in origin, apart from congenital predispositions of temperament that various “twin studies” seem to suggest exist.
GD
PS How do I know? Cos I was born an Aspie, and I happen to be quite proud of that difference in me, since I came to understand it.
Susiejo,
I’m having a few different reactions to what you’ve written.
the first is i’m not (yet) willing to let go of what I imagine my ex’s life was like as a child. His stories were corroborated by his brothers memories. I understand the impact some of my childhood experiences had on me and they werent as bad so in accepting that about him, I accept my own stuff about me too.
On top of that I also notice there is a streak of self-centred, destructive, sadistic behaviours in a number of people in his family so I’m willing to accept that genetics plays a role.
He is also an overly masculine guy, physically as well as mentally so I’m more than willing to accept his hormones have something to do with it.
However, above and beyond that, I dont care about the sources, the causes, whether they can be manipulated, changed, influenced, worked through, cleared away.
What I care about today (and who knows how I’ll feel about it next month or next year) is he was cruel, selfish, deceitful and an all around destructive influence in my life. He drastically diminished the quality of my life in ALL ways. He is a dangerous man, not just to me but in society. He loves everything criminal, would be Tony Soprano if someone would just give him the chance. If he hired me to cure him I’d be interested in the whys and the hows. But I’m nobody, just the ex love of his life so I’m not at all interested anymore.
So as much as I respect you as a forum member, I dont have the stomach for your last post.
Do I think he felt agony and shame even once? Yes. I dont doubt it.
Do I think he allows himself to feel anything close to it now? Hell no.
In fact he is probably proud of himself for having pulled (more than) one over on me, that he was able to get away with as much as he could, and that I’m too needy if I would dare to get upset with him that he didnt have anything kind to say when my grandmother was dying an unpleasant death.
He may not have empathy for me, but he knows what it is, because he always wanted it FROM me.
He can go and be as cruel, dangerous, charming, smart, popular, rich, influential and vacuous as he likes…as long as he stays far far away from me I’ll be happy.
bup,
I do NOT believe that mothers are responsible for the sins of the world, nor their children’s sins. That is the ultimate chauvinistic attitude!! Freud promoted it but hey, he was a coke head, sex pervert, century before us and decades of scientific knowledge.
Mothers can teach bad thought processes. They can feed garbage food which causes bad development, health and emotional problems, bad brains, etc. They can pass bad genes, but so can fathers do all this and they really rule the home right? But relatives and our public schools influence !! A person’s development in terms of learning is influenced by many many factors of their environment. Yes women are the superior sex but they really are not responsible for the sins of the world, nor are their NPD’s.
Truth is, studies show that those growing up in abusive or neglectful homes become overly permissive parents, they are overly empathic, overly indulgent. Less likely to abuse because they know the pain.
And another fact is that women are more abusive than men. Attribute that to their stresses of life. Attribute the males to his stresses. Bottom line, abuse is aspect of life. Life is not a rose garden.
There is not a brain scan for NPD. That is a psychological term, not a neurological term. Where the academicians are right now is pegging frontal lobe disorders. They have over 50 causes to that which includes lack of empathy, what they call an executive function. Different parts of the brain to different behaviors. There is not a simple anwser - I’m sorry but truth is, we know very little about life.
I didn’t mean to compare them ( my nephew has Asperger’s), but I
thought that NPD might be a brain function. It is SO RAMPANT in my
family that I thought it might be a genetic glitch. That is ALL I AM
POSING… HAVE
WE HAD BRAIN SCANS OF THESE PEOPLE AND COMPARED THEM TO THOSE THAT
DON’T HAVE NPD to see if there is a difference? I feel that there
MIGHT BE a disconnect SOMEWHERE in the brain…
On Oct 23, 2007, at 9:11 PM, blitzen wrote:
Well Bup,
My own thought would be that if it is a genetic glitch (and it certainly could be), it isn’t NPD.
Maybe what I call “As on the left hand path” (Aspies don’t get issued with halos at birth, we have to work for them like everybody else :o) ) or maybe even psychopathy?
But don’t underestimate the potential impact of your Uncle’s suicide, and whatever drove him to it…which might be something within the family that you couldn’t even guess at.
GD
The Sad Dreams of the Narcissist
http://samvak.tripod.com/narcissistdreams.html
Do Narcissists have Emotions?
http://samvak.tripod.com/faq33.html
The Music of the Narcissist’s Emotions
http://samvak.tripod.com/narcissistmusic.html
The Narcissist’s Inappropriate Affect
http://samvak.tripod.com/faq41.html
----- Original Message -----
From: “thephoenix101” npd-cpt6452@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: [npd] Hate-fest
Pathological narcissism is a reaction to prolonged abuse and trauma in early
childhood or early adolescence. The source of the abuse or trauma is
immaterial - the perpetrators could be parents, teachers, other adults, or
peers. Pampering, smothering, spoiling, and “engulfing” the child are also
forms of abuse - see these:
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/narcissismglance.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal42.html
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php/type/doc/id/419
Take care.
Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: “bup” npd-cpt6452@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: [npd] Hate-fest