On heterogeneity and civility

Not everyone sees things the same in this world. I’m grateful for that. I learn much from those whose views are broader, more focussed or sometimes, completely alien to mine.

I’ve had people in my life, during some of the hardest, terrifying, demanding, dangerous, or hopeless moments in my life treat me differently because of those viewpoints. I had a friend who slept over one night and did nothing but brush my hair in the silence while I cried. She saved my life. I had another who told me again and again to leave my expartner, even while I was still deeply in love with him and angry with her for saying things I didnt want to hear. She saved my life too.

I adored the friend who came over with too much vodka one night and helped me obliterate the pain – as much as I was grateful for another who got me to join the gym with her.

I work in a place with 500 at-risk teens. Theyre all from different backgrounds, most of them from poverty and illiteracy. Many are drug or alcohol addicted. Theyre teen prostitutes, drug dealers, gang members, wards of the court, abandoned, orphaned, abused physically, sexually and most often emotionally. Some withdraw, dissociate, run away, disappear, some act out, get aggressive, bully, some self-destruct, self-mutilate, try suicide. Most of them have histories in their short lives as bad or worse than the last 9 years of MY life.

They’re ALL someone’s child.

The staff are like an ensemble cast. We have maternal cuddly loving soft hearted women. We have drill sergeants. We have spiritual monks, magicians, rockstars. lecturers. therapists, jail guards, motivational speakers…a broad mix of points of view, styles, skills, tactics that mean all those kids have a chance to find someone with whom they click, who will hold their hand when theyre hurting, or kick their ass when theyre letting themselves down – and everything inbetween.

Guess which one I am? Its not the drill sergeant. You’d be surprised. But I have moments of ass-kicking, I have moments of being the rockstar, the therapist and many more. I’m fluid, I adapt to each students needs in the best way I can…and I also have moments of answering my own call to keep myself balanced and not co-dependent.

What NONE of us do, to MY knowledge anyway (although we have as you’d imagine a high burnout rate considering our clientele) is enable those who are sick and suffering and self-destructive…to continue to be so.

We get kids into shelters, detox, foster homes, halfway houses, native community groups, JOBS, student welfare, affordable housing…and this week I helped get one of my students a winter coat, boots, and food to get her over the weekend.

Its true I dont feel my heart invested in the world as much as I used to when I asked for that placement. But my spirit still is, in fact more so now that I’m suffering personally much less than I had been.

Why am I telling you all this? Because a handful of you seem to think I’m a destructive force here.

I can see theres conflict. I can see theres disrespect and defensiveness.

But do you recognize a different view? an alternative way of seeing things? That I choose sometimes to hold a hand I think needs holding, offer some shields and weapons to someone who needs to protect herself, that I do NOT enable some people, and sometimes I kick ass in as gentle and respectful way as I can…and most times speak from experience “been there, here’s what helped me”. I , even when I am loudly and clearly demanding that I and others be treated with respect, am ALWAYS consciously holding in my awareness that I have something positive to offer.

I accept its not what some people want to hear. God knows I didnt want to be told to leave my partner, but over the months and years that friends voice was filed away and reheard many times until I WAS ready to leave. God knows I HATE exercise in any form, but I understood the person pushing my butt to the door had my best interest at heart. Sometimes what we want to hear just allows us to be more comfortable in our stuck-ness. Sometimes when we hear soemthign we dont like, we’re actually deafening ourselves to soemthing unpleasant, but helpful.

Dont let your feelings of “ouch, I dont like the sound of that” get in the way of seeing either the benefit of an alternative view, OR the intent behind my contribution.

The world contains many dissenting voices.

Youre ALWAYS free to disagree with, consider, reject or adopt according to what fits for you.

But dont demand I be just like you, post just like you, hold hands for everyone just like you, shower people with love just like you.

Dont project on me, make incorrect assumptions about, or bully me because I post “actually I have the opposite to say”.

I dont see many dissenting views here. In fact I’m feeling a little bit alone sometimes when theres all this “I love you” stuff going on, which is all nice and beautiful, but I can say from MY experience with my home forums, when the shit was hitting the fan in my life, I didnt get that, I got other stuf that I found valuable, meaningful and helpful. Give forum members LOVE all you want, dont label me unsupportive because I choose to offer something else.

Why not for a little while, just hold in your awareness the possibility that maybe, just maybe…“that Phoenixxx chick is a pain in my butt but she’s got good intentions”…or God forbid, that “maybe sometimes, theres something considerable in what she says”.

How many of you see or have seen a therapist? Were they all yes men/women who held your hands and told you how much they loved you? or did they listen, comisserate but also challenge you to change your thoughts, beliefs or behaviours with differing perspectives than your own?

Look, its not necessary to attack me when you dont like what you read of mine. You can do other things. You can respectfully disagree, you can enter into a debate or discussion, I’ll likely learn something, and maybe you will too. You can tell me you’ll file it away for future reference. You can read it and say nothing, and respond to someone else. You can tell me how it wasnt that way in your experience. I’ll listen.

All I have ever requested from you in this forum is mutual respect. MUTUAL. I give it, you may notice even when I am attacked repeatedly. I also expect it, from my friends, my from my students, and from strangers in a web forum.

Theres room for all of us, even those of us who see things in a completely alien way from you.

So with that in mind, I’m saying one last time, I’d like there to be less rancor in all areas of my life between now and New Years. To that end I’m going to try my best not to participate in the derailing of threads with this repetitive drama “thing” that seems to follow me from thread to thread now. I invite you to join me in that. I also invite you to join me in disagreeing WITH respect so that the twisting of words and name calling, character assassination comes to an end. I dont think anyone on the forum benefits from it. I know I dont like being misquoted and misrepresented in charaxcter assassinations.

If I have something to say in regards to be treated in a less than rerspectful or civilized way, I’ll post about it here. I think those who start threads about things they are interested in should be allowed to have them stay on track (my apologies for my having engaged in the interruptions). I invite you to do the same.

I know I have invited you privately in PM to make peace (kudos to Lindy for having accepted and in working on that mutual understanding and peace treaty between us), even if its just a mutual agreement to cease and desist – but youve rejected those, so maybe this is a more palatable alternative for you.

Lets hope so anyway.

and ps. I was NEVER asked or even hinted at to drive anyone away. Those people here who have made friends with me carry themselves with dignity, maturity and class, and I admire them for that. I’ve been asked to come back because they thought I had something of value to contribute. Nothing more, nothing less. I understand theres some paranoia, but I have put effort into not becoming part of that. I am me, one woman, who seems to have a lot to say (ha!!). I have my own concerns, my own issues, my own recovery path I’m slogging away on, and I post about on my home forums because it seems better suited there, among people who share similar experiences, than here. Are you putting effort into driving me away??? cuz until you mentioned it, I didnt believe you were.

Theres room for everyone here, there has to be, theres no moderator on duty to remove trolls or bullies. So the next best thing is learning to get along…even with people one doesnt particularly like.

I’m rising to the challenge…how about you?

I really dig how you share your “vitamins”.

(big smiles)

thankyou

and I apologize if my Pm’s were gruff

more gruff than my public posts
i didnt think they were but I went back and reread them

as my mom always said to me, I could do or be anyone I wanted, “but hunny there’s no future in career diplomacy for you”.

ugh
its a shortcoming no doubt

WHEN YOU STOP SAYING THAT WE ARE ALL THE SAME PERSON FINE. WE ARE 3 SEPERATE PEOPLE. BONS DAUGHTER WILL BE GONE 1 YEAR COMES DEC. I AM TIRED OF BEING ACCUSED AND TIRED OF HAVING MY FRIENDS HURT BY THINGS THAT ARE SAID . MAYBE WE JUST TAKE THINGS DIFFERENTLEY. I DID SEE THE PM YOU SENT TO LINDY AND IT WAS UNCALLED FOR. YOU ARE NOT AS INNOCENT AS YOU WANT EVERYONE TO BELIEVE. I COULD OF COPIED AND PASTED IT BUT I DIDN’T. FOR NOW YOU HAVE YOUR OPINION AND I HAVE MINE. LETS LEAVE IT AT THAT AND TRY TO BE CIVIL EVEN IF WE DON’T AGREE ON CERTAIN SUBJECTS. IT IS THE HOLIDAY SEASON AND I WANT EVERYONE TO ENJOY. I KNOW I AM GOING TO. BUT I WILL NOT PUT UP WITH ACCUSATIONS. WITH THAT SAID LET’S SEE IF THIS WILL WORK.

you do have good intentions some body we both respect helped me see that last night

thank you Vickie
I appreciate it

I also appreciate your skill at being succinct

'sheesh, I either write too little and am misunderstood, or write too much and bore people to tears !

Ahem…thePhoenixxx, you do go on…I have received your 5 PM’s and have decided to block you…AGAIN. The writings of yours in the forum are quite intelligent; however, you can be quite angry and negative in PM’s and I told you i wasn’t going to argue with you and I am not going to. You can ramble on and on and on about my journal, or any old other thing you like to try and incriminate me or others in your thread. YOU are not my friend, my mother, my therapist, my husband, my coworker, my…anything. Your help is not needed in my life. You can move on and “help” others, thank you very much. Consult your respected members and please go on with your life and good luck and best wishes and I do mean that.

Those people here who have made friends with me carry themselves with dignity, maturity and class, and I admire them for that.

You keep repeating this as though to say that those who do not agree with you, do not have these qualities, but alas! they most certainly do.  Some people will like you, others will not, like you have told me many, many times.  That is just the way of the world, thephoenixxxx, and you know it.  The last time we talked in PM's, you told me how many people, I am sure the ones who are "mature, with class and dignity" IN YOUR BOOK, anyway, were telling you not to trust me, that i am untrustworthy, mean and hateful.  I don't want to know and would not like the kind of people that you consider "classy." 

Dreen is going through a very bad time and you have acknowledged that in another thread.  This is a very hard time of year for Bon, no, let me say, and exceptionally bad year time of year for Bon, and our friend Jade is very, very sick.  People are touchy this time of year and you are, also.  Let things be and let people be the way that they will be.  Stop picking. You do not get respect by demanding it.  I will thank you for not pushing my name into your arguments, also. 

Lindy, you are part of my experience here. You told me you trusted me a number of times in PM without evening knowing me and directly after public confrontations. I doubted you meant that. I learn as I get experience here. I thought you meant what you said to me in PM. You will notice I have not once revealed any of the things you revealed to me about others that would upset them. Thats because I valued your trust in me to share those things.

When I shared with you the things some members were Pm’ing me about your nasty journal entries for instance, YOU seem to have assumed those are the same few here whom I admire and respect and asked me to stay. Let me tell you theyre different people. let me remind you I also told you, those who did come to me complaining about the nastiness wanted to fuel the fire, and I didnt take the bait. In fact I put some effort into diffusing it.

But I do go to the few I admire and ask for feedback, I prompt them to challenge me because I am perfectly aware humans dont always see themselves in clarity. How I see myself from inside me, will most certainly be different than how I am perceived from outside by someone else.

OF COURSE people here are suffering in their lives. I suspect anyone who isnt wouldnt be a member on this forum. But I see the VAST majority being respectful. For instance I notice that people like Jade and Kay express their thoughts and feelings in ways that are completely different from mine, in the same threads, in ways that are not combative or confrontational to me or any others at all. Thats fabulous.

As I’ve said many times before, I give what I want to get. I state my opinions even as they are in disagreement with others in respectful ways. I am EVEN respectful in the face of repeated attacks by the 2 friends of yours whom you are defending now as having hard times in their lives.

Theres no reason to be on the attack. There IS reason to make boundaries clear, to offer respect, to request it, to hope for peace even while I seem a complete alien to people like you (at least publicly, I’m confused since you give me glowing praise in PM).

Go back and read ANY post I’ve made on this forum and you can hold it up against what I’ve written here, and see they have integrity, theyre in concert with each other. I think I’ve been consistent the entire time. I havent said one thing and done another. I dont talk out of both sides of my mouth.

With me, what you see is precisely what you get.

I appreciate you and your 2 combative friends are having hard times.

I do.

Me too.

Its not an excuse for abusive behaviour (I accepted excuses for abusive behaviour for years, guess what? its a mistake to do that…maintaining boundaries and teaching people how to treat you is a hard life lesson I learned, I implement it in all areas of my life now). All the more reason why mutual respect and tolerance for differing viewpoints could benefit everyone right about now.

actually, let me amend that:

I have stated my case

its your perogative to accept my invitation
or not
you said you did once
if you changed your mind
thats your perogative too

but my feelings on these points stay the same
theyre my convictions

As many times that i told you that i trusted you, EARLY in our conversations, is as many times as you told me NOT TO…i never mentioned anyone’s name when i was talking to you, so how could you tell anyone what i said about anyone anyway? ???
Then as the conversations went on, I realized something very odd had occurred. You wanted me to tell you how awful I am and kept telling me how “untrustworthy, mean and hateful” I am over and over and over again. That is when i blocked you. There is something wrong with that, thephoenixxxx, when you tell someone you want to help them and the conversation turns to browbeating. Very weird vibes I was getting from you, like you wanted someone to PAY for your hurt and it wasn’t going to be me. I think you do have good intentions and that you are misunderstood in this forum alot of the time, but the last conversation that we had was more than weird.

I do not want to argue with you and I am not going to and you can say what you like. I am just telling you that you are a bit HARSH in what you say. I do not see what is wrong with telling people that you can empathize with that you care about them, love them or anything else. If you don’t feel that way, don’t say it, but don’t put anyone else down for saying how they feel. It is their right and their opinion. That is okay. If your opinion is different, that’s okay, too. Just stop picking at people, please.

By the way, Dreen and Bon have many, many friends. They are not JUST my friends. I do love them both, they are damn good people.

.

Lindy stop twisting my words as Bonbon and Dreen do. I did NOT say it was wrong for people to say they empathize, care or love other members. In fact I am certain I said it was lovely, BUT I have other things to offer that I think are helpful.

Please read more carefully and then you wouldnt have these wrong assumptions (or projections). I do not pick , I offer a different viewpoint. I dont apologize for that. That may sound harsh to you. OK point taken.

And in regards to the PMs I had where I said it was OK if you have an inner bully or nastygirl, its because you kept telling me you were an angel despite having a really horribly nasty short story in your journal YOU confessed was because you wanted to make peace with spomeone on the forum but they were ignoring you. It wasnt because I am trying to get YOU to do anything for ME. (laughing)

I have said this before and it is still true now, I am VERY clear who in my little slice of the universe DOES deserve all my anger…and it isnt you or anyone else on this forum.

Your short stories, nasty or not , have nothing to do with me or my life, they have to do with YOURS, and all I was saying was “why not take responsibility for your own feelings, whether theyre good or bad, warm or nasty, take ownership of them”.

Which by the way, you will see in all of my posts in regards to my OWN feelings which I accept even while disliking some of them.

Its the same advice I would use with anyone else.

And yes I believe you that the 3 of you who are consistently disrespectful to me DO have many friends. Youre all very good at giving love to members, strangers or not. Some people coming here hunger for love so I’m sure you bring warmth to their hurting spirits. Youre the part of the ensemble cast that does so.

My role is different. And I see the 3 of you find it very difficult to accept me in mine. Which is unforunate because youre missing something considerable.

And creating more and more drama in a forum all 3 of you have said wanted to shush the drama.

I’m giving you the ingredients for lessening the drama.

mutual respect
respectful disagreement
not derailing other people’s threads

if you have reasonable ingredients to add to the list I’m all ears. You offered me something meaningful in PM I chewed over and contemplated as reasonable before, remember? I’m not deaf.

Be my guest. Do it again. Lets not just make me it ME who constructs a better way of doing things, lets do it together. I’m only 45, I’m not finished learning things yet.

But just know, if its going to be nasty, disrespectful, or childish I just might turn a deaf ear. Its a hard learned boundary of mine.

I'd like everyone here to know, I am one of those who asked Phoenixxx to stay in the forums.  She is an authentic and valuable friend to me. 

My theory is that it's not possible to "make" a friend.  However one can identify friends by the character they demonstrate. 

When I was in Hawaii, there was a guy (a local) who didn't like me, and he made that fact very clear.  I ended up thinking of him as a friend anyway because I could see that he had integrity, was a hard worker, and treated people, even me with respect.  Eventually he developed a high regard for me as well.  First he had to get over the cultural mandate that locals were not supposed to like haoles' (white people).

If friendship is based on integrity and value, Phoenixxx is a friend, even to those who take exception to a lot of what she has to say. 

This doesn't mean I'm "taking sides."  I'm not going to become involved in who said what to whom, and who started it, etc. 

I've seen all involved parties give loving support to others. 

I'd bet my paycheck that if we all knew a bit more about each other, including knowledge of the experiences that have led us to pain, sensitivity and defensiveness, we'd have no problem forgiving and/or overlooking comments that are off track or misunderstood. 

It also occurs to me that never in the entire history of this site, perhaps of the world has a comment been made that required a hostile response.  Hence there is always a choice to respond in a way that promotes clarity and peace or...

do you ask permission to be respected by your students or do you command respect lindy? thats what the pheonixxx is doing if you don’t command you tend to become a door mat complete with mud trust me I am a muddy mat

(sigh)

This is the 2nd time in 2 days that a CP friend has touched me (I’ll add it to the massage therapy grace I got today).

You know, I dont talk much about my own stuff on this particular forum, I mean not about the painful stuff. Part of that is because I share it on another forum with people who have had similar experiences. Its also because in the bigger picture of things I feel pretty damn good compared to how I used to feel not too long ago. It seems other members here feel much worse than I do, what do I have to complain about?

But I would like to share, as a result of the experiences of the last 9 years of my life, the years of therapy, the EMDR I’m presently completing…I ended up different than I wanted, and different than I had planned for myself.

I’ve always been unafraid of conflict. I’m the warrior daughter of 2 warrior parents, its in the genes. But I also used to have a big old soft pink wide open heart. That sucker’s locked down right now in so many pieces of thick armour I feel flat and cold and hard most of the time. But as much as I lament not having that soft open heart like I used to, I am MORE satisfied that I’m not vulnerable to pain right now…and…(swallowing) I’m not in the agony or the violent hatred I used to be. Its no way to live…and the body doesnt like it, nope.

Many times these days I think “this isnt the beauty I used to feel, but at least thank God, I’m healthy and like getting out of bed and going to work every day”.

thats a big deal to me.

Trust me, I recognize I’m a little gruff. Its that genetic warrior mixed with recovering from…well a lot of ugly stuff. I talk about respect a lot because the lack of it was part of that ugly stuff. I’ve learned how valuable it is to hacve and maintain and bring to the table if I’m ever going to have it as a constant in my life.

I value all of you, yes even you 3 mean girls enough to keep offerin it to you despite the hard time youre giving me…cuz, well, its important to me to be who I want myself to be, as well as wanting you not to get any ugly stuff from me.

I recognize I’m gruff.

This afternoon a massage therapist touched what lies beneath the gruff, flat, cold, hard exterior. I wept. And Spiritriver touched it too in Pm tonight (thankyou). I think I believe him that theres something like that going on for the 3 of you too. I dont know how to touch that in you. I hope its not even necessary that I do.

I’m hoping if the conflict and drama could stop long enough, especially over the holidays, we might just see glimpses of it in each other. Holidays have a way of revealing softnesses.

I’m hopeful.

Keep the hope, Phoenixxx! I understand what you are saying. You and I have had it out before. We had our tiff. I like to think I gave you the respect to listen to you with an open mind to where you were coming from and more importantly, where you were going with your point. Once I had LISTENED to what you brought to the table, the better I was able to respond. I was amazed at how quickly we respectfully settled our differences. The point is…once I listened, I noticed you were not speaking of my problem personally, therefore I didn’t have to take it personally. In a way, you challenged me to see a different point of view. I soon discovered that just because it is a different point of view doesn’t mean it’s wrong. There can be two or three correct points of view, each with their own validity, and they can coexist peacefully. You don’t have to call me a friend. I am good with that. But I do consider you a friend based on (as Spiritriver said) the character I see in you. You have been honest and respectful with me. Yes, you have a lot to offer and I personally will respectfully accept your challenges.

We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Lindy, sometimes this gets so silly I cant help but laugh.

Again more twisting. I sent 3 Pm’s last night, and you sent some too. Its not the bad thing you are trying to make it sound like.

And if you go back and read what I sent when youre not so hurt you might recognize that what was in there was good, and when I said “think about it and let me know your thoughts” I was genuine (sheesh, when am I not?).

Maybe its not possible to admit…or maybe even recognize the parts of self that are less than stellar, less than desired even. I’m trying to remember if there was ever a time I couldnt handle my own self-criticism. I’m not sure there was, maybe because my parents always asked me, even as a child “how did you contribute to the problem? what can you contribute to the solution?” So I’m always looking at, or asking others to look for me at how I’m not meeting “the mark”. (thats the growth process I talk about regularly on my home forums, the parts of me these days I’m not happy with, that I accept theyre there, and I put effort into changing them).

If my talking about considering consulting clear visioned people how you might not be meeting YOUR OWN mark of being a nice person, is not advice you want, thats OK. I can live with that. Thats all you had to say. Theres no need for yet more sarcasm, twisting my words, trying to discredit me publicly or blocking me.

Of course you CAN…its always your perogative to do whatever you like.

But you didnt HAVE to.

Its just a continuation of the drama, right?

How about this, how about tomorrow or next week after Thanksgiving when the stress of the first holiday passes, consider my invitation to come back here and help with the “ingredient list”?

Because I’m serious. I accept its not just MY values/convictions that would improve things here, that if I want you and I to work together it takes both of us bringing stuff to the table.

We can try to make it a collaboration.

I think thats what I said a few weeks ago when we came to our own private peace treaty. Its too bad it didnt hold. I’m here trying again because I believe in it.

I invite you to too.

that quote is EXACTLY what I’ve been getting at…thank you so much for including it!

(love MLK)

thank you everyone for posting
I appreciate your feedback even if it isnt what I want to hear
I have hope something good will come out of this if we just keep trying

I’m off to see my best friend whom I havent seen in months
so theres a lot of joyful anticipation and warmth
and I’d like to radiate a bit of that out from this thread too

I hope your holiday weekend provides a lot of warmth and gratitude flowing through all of your hearts too

peace **