Wahela,
Doesn’t it worry you at all that much of what Sam Vaknin and those affiliated to him have to say is at variance with all medical and academic knowledge and information to the extent of actually representing a totally different condition (which may not even exist)?
If not, NO WONDER Femfree kept you around, how ever often you challenged Sam.
GD
Its a mistake to tell survivors of N's that they too are N's.
Thats what their N's told them everytime they said "youre not considerate enough, youre not generous enough, you refuse to change or address your flaws, the problems not with ME its with YOU, your drama-queen behaviour is the reason I dont want to be with you, youre always criticizing me, its never enough is it?"
What is more accurate and humane is to say to a survivor "youre in recovery, this is the one time you really DO need to put yourself first in order to get to the other side".
There's nothing pathological about that kind of selfishness at this point in a survivor's life, and to claim it is, is malevolent.
This is the purest example of malignant narcissism. This is why I stick around: most of the "victims" in this group are, actually, raging narcissists. I am learning a lot from their misbehavior.Take care there!Sam
Rene,
NPD is not diabolical or evil. It is a medical problem that prohibits free choice which is necessary for your scriptures to be applicable.
One problem in NPD is the inability to feel empathy. Now it follows from that that a person with NPD would not be aware of the emotional pain they inflicted upon another. Without that awareness, they could not intentionally choose actions they knew would inflict pain.
The difference in Lucifer and evil as described in the Bible, is that they have that knowledge, full capacity of mental functions. So unlike the NPD, Evil knowingly choses actions with full intentions of inflicting pain. These are not the same.
It is not a problem in NPD that they believe they are God. Rather, the problem is an inflated sense of self worth. These again are not the same.
These are actually examples of taking the criteria for NPD and grossly distorting it into something that it is not.
Throughout your scriptures, a reoccurring point is that this mind twisting from truth to non-truth is a tactic used by evil.
Zinger! Pow! KaZAM!
I'd like to interject a question here from a layperson's point of view having studied a fair amount about NPD in addition to reading Malignant Self-Love (which was way over-the-top for the Garden Variety N later plucked like a weed from my bounteous bosom).
There's a lot of talk about how "Sam Vaknin and those affiliated to him have to say is at variance with all medical and academic knowledge and information to the extent of actually representing a totally different condition (which may not even exist)? "
Teach me, Blitzen. Can you take some time and come up with a list of the numerous ways Vaknin is at variance with all medical and academic knowledge?
Just take a piece of paper and list reputable research that is contradicted by Vaknin's writings.
That would be very helpful to those of us struggling to make sense of words like 'co-morbid' and 'pathological self-esteem regulation'; or ' interactive models for co-occurring pathological narcissism/NPD and the bipolar spectrum disorders.' (that last psychoblahblah was excerpted from an essay I was reading this morning in response to DD's question).
I'm willing to listen but only if something constructive is being offered.
CZBZ
(edited message to correct DD as the originator of the thread about bipolar and NPD)
Sure CZBZ
Start at page one…
…and work your way up to…where is he up to now?
If you want to understand NPD read a current mental health professional, OR ask someone who has healed from it enough to feel they have reasons to prefer telling the truth to lying.
Didn’t you used to be one of Sam’s most ardent supporters right up to the moment Femfree turned on you for starting your own BBS…and Sam sides with her, not you?
Just FYI I never supported Sam’s nonsense at all…saw through him on day one…I always thought he was funny though…
He honestly IS really funny…
GD
Phoenix,
Who told you that you are an “N” this time?
Maybe if you tried to act a little less self absorbed, attention seeking and manipulative people would stop making that mistake?
Just a suggestion…
GD
Phoenix,
Wouldn’t a sadist have to be able to feel empathy for his victim in order to take pleasure in the pain they caused them?
Are you sure he was a sadist or could he have just lacked any moral compulsions? How would one know the difference?
So some folks don't like me, hey...so what? My own Beloved didn't even like me. Once you lift that boulder off your chest, the rest of life is merely strewn with pebbles.
I guess what's really bugging me about the constant KaBlamming on CarePlace is that 'we' (Or let me say "I") feel my efforts to understand NPD are pathetically wimpy and un-intelligent. That I'm too darn stooopid to GET the fact that Sam Vaknin has NPD, Malignant NPD to be more precise. That without some savior riding in on her white horse to rescue me from my obvious retardation, I can't possibly think for myself.
Duh, Seriously, Blitzen! I feel highly underestimated and judged. Yea...I feel judged, too.
What about that list of precise & diagnostically proven & credible differences between Sam and let's say, ummm...Kernberg. Or Kohut. Or even a researcher like Elsa Ronningstam (who compiles theoretical constructs of NPD into a single volume).
CZBZ
Do you guys realize, what a feast you are laying out for any N to get fat on?
Please I am on your side, I was there and got away for good.
All this emotion and energy wasted on What?
Does it really matter all the hair splitting about medical, proof, and so on?
The fact is, we all got deeply wounded and hurt by mentally ill loved ones.
The way I broke the vicious N cycle is by focusing on me and what I want!
Leave behind what you do not want or like.
Try out how much better you feel and how your life will change when you are spending your energy and emotions on good things.
Free your hearts and do the serenity prayer.
And then think of different ways to make yourself happy. Find out what you really want. Now this is energy well used. Fake it if you have to, it will then come naturally.
I do fully understand what you are doing, was stuck with it for years and guess what? It did not get me no where, but being miserable all the time!
Please I am just trying to help, and this was my turning point when I learned to think positive and chase all the things out of my mind I did not want.
It is your god giving right to be happy, but you can not get there with focusing on all that mind boggling stuff.
Happiness starts with the brain first, by what we are thinking about all day long, thoughts are controlled by you, you decide your own happiness.
The rest will follow, as it was in the bad it will be in the good!
Love you all Gypsy
OH blitzen, I’m agreeing with you…I think HIS comments are juvenile, not yours!
Sorry that wasn’t clear.
----- Original Message ----
From: blitzen npd-cpt6649@lists.careplace.com
To: ukneeqstuff@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2007 1:19:07 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Sam Vakin’s Help to Us All
I just wanted to restate that I felt HIS (Vakim’s) responses are often juvenile
----- Original Message ----
From: wahela npd-cpt6649@lists.careplace.com
To: ukneeqstuff@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2007 1:19:11 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Sam Vakin’s Help to Us All
Sorry about that Jen…
I get a little paranoid whenever I find myself surrounded by “devotees”…
Can we upgarde that to “almost always juvenile” and you got a deal…
:o)
For others, which part of “I am not an idiot” is causing you strain?
GD
(If you just pulled out of a dumpster, what I just pulled out of a dumpster, you’d be in a GREAT mood too :O)
"Kernberg suggests that malignant narcissism can be expressed in seemingly self-justifiable violence, sadistic cruelty, or self-destructiveness, where aggression and sadism is combined with elation and increased self-esteem." ~Elsa Ronningstam
If Vaknin's comments were not juvenile, retaliatory, biting and sarcastically humorous, would you believe he was a Malignant Narcissist? ;-)
"A more severe level of superego dysfunction in people with a narcissistic personality structure has been captured by the term 'malignant narcissism'. (O. Kernberg, 1992, 1998)
"...characterized by functioning that falls between NPD and ASPD...overt passive or active antisocial behavior, paranoid traits, and ego-syntonic aggression and sadism that can be directed toward others as well as toward the self."
"Kernberg suggests that malignant narcissism can be expressed in seemingly self-justifiable violence, sadistic cruelty, or self-destructiveness, where aggression and sadism is combined with elation and increased self-esteem." ~Elsa Ronningstam
Does that help explain what happens on threads when people ask a Malignant Narcissist to empathize with their pain? LOL
CZBZ
p.s. Elsa Ronningstam, Ph.D has been studying and treating people with narcissistic disorders for 25 years. She is an Associate clinical Professor of Psychology in the Dept. of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and an Associate Clinical Psychologist at McLean Hospital in MA.
"Kernberg suggests that malignant narcissism can be expressed in seemingly self-justifiable violence, sadistic cruelty, or self-destructiveness, where aggression and sadism is combined with elation and increased self-esteem." ~Elsa Ronningstam
Does that help explain what happens on threads when people ask a Malignant Narcissist to empathize with their pain?
Its an accurate profile of my expartner, and it would seem also Sam, and the disordered person he describes in his book.
I want to add one thing to this discussion. If we accept it as a disorder, I will not accept then that we dont get to call them evil or monstrous or vampires while we're angry and raging and hateful in our recovery and grief. What else is an emotional vampire if not someone who takes advantage of anothers good will, commitment, and trust in order to commit self-justifiable violence, sadistic cruelty, aggression and sadism ?
The term evil says more about the person using it than the one its being used for, and frankly if I tell someone a person is evil, I think its understood they did some pretty awful things in the spirit of malevolence and I'm hurt and pissed...and frankly have a right to be.
I dont give a damn if he is disordered at this point, except to keep in awareness I dont have a hope in hell of ever seeing a change in him, so my only option is to get the hell out.
You’re right! Excellent point. Considering the fact that I’m divorcing a malignant N, I should have seen it for what it is…I just hate the back and forth emailing…bleah
----- Original Message ----
From: CZBZ npd-cpt6649@lists.careplace.com
To: ukneeqstuff@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2007 3:25:16 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Sam Vakin’s Help to Us All
I think you are ALL missing the point.
Narcissistic personality disorder is recognized and diagnosed as a totally different condition to the product being marketed by Sam Vaknin and his cult, thus the name is already reserved and used for other things. If you wanna call it something else and back off the real disorders in the real DSM and ICD 10, FEEL FREE…as long as you don’t actually talk yourselves into real lynchings or other mob violence.
My mother has been a controlled psychopath since 1930, doesn’t make her an EVEN BIGGER expert than Sam Vaknin on the topic…so WTF has whether he “looks like a Malignant Narcissist” got to do with anything?
Valid information depends up honest communication, which is the antithesis of manipulation and cannot co-exist with it…
If Sam Vaknin ever quits manipulating I will call CBS (and no Sam, sitting with your hands in your lap, wearing a ball gag for 6 hours because you want to be on TV does NOT count as “not manipulating”, but it was a cute try).
If you want information you go to people who can be counted upon to have the integrity to communicate the fully, honestly, objectively and impartially…otherwise, you do not actually get information, you get BS.
Of course, some people actually WANT AND CRAVE BS…which often how come they wind up in screwy relationships in the first place…by confining their choices to people who are sufficiently full of sh*t to tell them whatever they want to hear, and rejecting (and often abusing) anyone who is honest with them.
GD
" I want to add one thing to this discussion. If we accept it as a disorder, I will not accept then that we dont get to call them evil or monstrous or vampires while we're angry and raging and hateful in our recovery and grief. What else is an emotional vampire if not someone who takes advantage of anothers good will, commitment, and trust in order to commit self-justifiable violence, sadistic cruelty, aggression and sadism ?" ~Phoenix
Look, I've been talking to hurting people for years now. People who were nearly out-of-their-minds with grief and pain. Desperately seeking answers, begging the N to come home, struggling to maintain a relationship for the sake of the kids despite daily anxiety living with a Narcissist. This is where my allegiance resides: the family and friends of Narcissists.
I've done my share of calling the X 'evil' or even myself or the cats or the rotten garage door when it refused to budge like it was supposed to. I don't particularly like the concept of evil and certainly not when it's used to scapegoat other people. The minute we dehumanize a group of people by saying they are demons or vampires or devils or Vaknin-devotees, we do exactly what has been done to us: objectify others in order to justify inhuman behavior.
However, there's a time and a place for everything.
I'd be scared to death should a Malignant Narcissist deem ME to be evil, or my kids. I'm not scared a whittle when my kids or I bust out calling the X an evil maN. Why not? Because we can restrain ourselves. Because we know the difference between reality and fantasy. Because we do not have distorted perceptions of reality nor see ourselves as having the right to harm others. Because we feel terrible if we're blunt, much less justify hurting others.
We have Restraints, in other words.
Not trying to justify all the rotten names I've called my Beloved (LOL) but using the term 'evil' defined his IMPACT on me in a manner that reached to the bottom of my pain and yanked it out by the roots. If we get stuck in our pain and never move beyond the initial venting process, we might wanna talk to a professional.
In my experience, most people process their Anger eventually and work their way towards forgiveness, having resolved retaliatory urges to Get Even. You can't get even with a Narcissist. He or she will always up the ante. At some point, we Let It Go, though not without a struggle.
By the way, the most descriptive word I had for the maN I married was Rat Bazturd. There are still those days when the only way to define my pain is to call him a Rat Bazturd. And as far as I can wager a guess, my X was a Garden Variety N, not a Malignant Narcissist.
For those who have been maliciously abused and treated sadistically, evil may be the only way to express the truth of their experience.
In cases like that (especially with N-parents), even the concept of forgiveness is not a mandate for mental health.
Hugs,
CZ
I had forgiven him (although will likely never forget what he did to me, or that I let him do it). Its the dawning onme recently that he did something he might have gotten away with if I hadnt figured it out.
Thats cut a fresh wound. And because it happened 4 years ago, I no longer can gather any evidence to have him prosecuted, like he really should be. I have no way of getting justice. I have no day in court, no way of punishing him. Even just a phonecall in the middle of the night to tell him “I know now what you did” wont give me satisfaction.
And while I dont fantasize about his death anymore, I do still use those words, still see those concepts in my visually thinking brain, still will do anything and everything to keep myself and my son away from him.
I recognize very clearly, I wont feel this way next year.
I expect to have at some point in the not too distant future I amy just pity him if I think about him at all.
But for now, I’m claiming “evil monster” as the tattoo he gets on his forehead, while I get the “soulmate” one he had put on me, lasered off.
The prostrate rage with nowhere constructive to go (I mean I could always turn to narcotics or drive my car off a cliff or rob a bank but its not in my character) is the high octane fuel for my emotional fire right now, and I dont feel at all apologetic about it.
I have no problem in times of hurt, stress, frustration,etc calling people who hurt us names such as evil, vampires, or monsters. We are all human.
The problem is when one is in such an emotional state, reads Samvak, and then concludes that this other person is IN FACT, really evil, a vampire or a monster. This is how Sam sells books, and it is what makes him dangerous.