"This is how Sam sells books, and it is what makes him dangerous"
All the more reason why a supportive forum is essential to healing.
CZ
CZBZ,
An inability to empathize with others feelings is one of the DSM-IV’s criteria for NPD. Those were actually posted today. Sadism is not a criteria at all for NPD.
I think Blixen is probably right that malignant narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder are two different things.
I refer to my soon to be ex as EOAS…Evil On A Stick…Ironic how so many of us use the term evil, isn’t it?
And, as others have said, EVIL describes my feelings for him…Rationally, I know he is a sick, sad, flawed man, and I pity him.
----- Original Message ----
From: susiejo npd-cpt6649@lists.careplace.com
To: ukneeqstuff@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2007 4:40:42 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Sam Vakin’s Help to Us All
"I really do solemnly believe with my gut, my mind and my heart that survivors of such painful experiences need support during their grief and pain. And pointing out how theyre wrong, even if they are, just doesnt ever seem all that beneficial when theyre at this point of...I dont know...fragile rage."
(((Phoenix))) As helpful as support forums can be, they also merit their bad reputation at times. I'm sad to see a conversation on CarePlace degrade to name-calling and nasty insinuations about fellow board members.
Perhaps we get upset by a forum manager's deletions on message threads; however, most safe and healthy forums would not allow members to attack one another without enforcing limitations when members cannot limit themselves.
For all the respect we are asked to give Narcissists for their mental disorder, it's always startling to see the N label used pejoratively to degrade other people.
If I had a dollar for everytime I've been called a 'N', Phoenix, I'd be sitting on a throne instead of computer chair from Staples.
Hugs,
CZ
I have always refused to see myself as a victim in my relationship, and I think it an unhealthy, subordinate perspective to take of oneself. I knew there were things wrong with mine when I got involved with him. I knew when I married, and I knew every day of our marriage. Thing is, his extremely bad qualities were not the only qualities he had. They rather were offset with extremely good ones. I wanted those good. Sure I wish the bad ones did not exist and I reacted against them. Yes I cried and moaned and went through all that. But still, all those qualities were a package deal and made him who he was. Did I feel pain? Yes, lots of it, probably too much. But I also had joys as well. Any day I could have left but chose not to. How can I call myself a victim?
And now that he is gone and all chapters finished, I would give anything for him to be back and so wish I had appreciated him more when he was alive, and dealt with it differently than I did. I know through his dying that nothing was the way he had really wanted it to be. It was beyond both of us. Life is more often like that than not.
As Blitzen has also pointed out, there are ongoing disagreements about the DSM-IV criteria defining the NPD. This is why I've found it best to study more than one theorist's ideas about NPD and/or Malignant Narcissism.
We are all working with 'questions' at this point. However, I know my place since I'm not a professional and rely heavily on any and all research i can get my obsessive little hands on. LOL I have finally settled on Elsa Ronningstam who presents as many differing opinions about the NPD as possible.
Malignant Narcissism lies on a continuum of pathological narcissism that is somewhere between the NPD and ASPD (or psychopathy as some people prefer to define it). No argument---the difference between a Narcissist and a Malignant Narcissist can be extreme. However, my understanding is that Malignant Narcissism is still on the N-continuum.
ASPD differs from Malignant Narcissism in that people with Malignant Narcissism still have concern for others and feelings of guilt (which may trigger defenses of grandiosity as a result). My understanding is also that ASPD is more likely to be consciously exploitive while NPD is a predominantly an unconscious defense.
This can all be very confusing for the average person trying to understand a diagnosis even theorists argue about! So here's a quick guideline that helped me make sense of the continuum:
The range of unhealthy narcissism (which we all have to some degree) extends to NPD as a category and at it's extreme, Malignant Narcissism. Malignant Narcissists can be dangerous if enraged or facing humiliation and defeat.
P.S. (Perhaps a better way to talk about the Narcissist's capacity for empathy is to define it as being 'compromised')
Does this align with your perceptions, too??
CZ
Phoenix, It was not until mine died that I found out how much he had done to me and how much I had let him do to me.
Near the end, my kids were seeing things he was doing and calling me stupid for not seeing them. My problem was that I knew him 40 years. He was doing things so out of his personality and character from who he had been for decades, I never would have believed it but reality slammed it hard in my face and it became undeniable. Major OUCH!!
It is not all resolved yet. I actually have moments of really wanting to kill him and thank God he is already dead so I do not condemn my soul to hell and my body to prison. While I go through emotional states of feeling that he was much much worse than a monster, I also still know intellectually that he had lost all moral compulsions and that was the driver to his actions, not persecution or sadism towards me or others. It was all about what was going on with him and his body dying over a fairly long period of time.
This is to not say that when we were nearer your age, he was an angel. Far from it, he was NPD then and he did other things. I just got to see the full progression to the end. That is when it all finally made sense.
I know it is the truth that will set me free and that is what I have to resolve to to get there.
I posted an excerpt of John Ratey’s earlier today where in he is discussing problems with specific diagnosis as no one specifically equals one, and most actually have a few criteria of one and a few criteria of another.
I like the idea of putting the ability to feel empathy and/or narcissism on a continuum of degrees. If malignant narcissism were to be at the further end of that continuum, it still is contradictory to say they are sadistic and they even less empathy. You just cannot have both as Ronningstam is trying to do.
Don't let my quick messages misrepresent Ronningstam! If there's any confusion, it's most likely my inadequate efforts verbalizing her concepts. So lemme ponder your question about empathy and sadism and reply more carefully.
Thanks for talking!
CZBZ
I’ll get to the truth and acceptance and nothing but the intellectual understanding too…one day. But the grieving process goes like THIS doesnt it?
And I spend enough time silently in my head reprimanding myself for still being in the grieving process, for still wasting another moment thinking anything, let alone hatred for someone who isnt worthy to clean my toilet.
I’m not really enjoying being called to task here on top of it, but so is life on online forums I suppose (especially since I’m not selling or promoting anything, or trying to do therapy with anyone…I’m just a bloody survivor looking to get and give support and kindness).
I’ve now been accused of being a N myself, as well as self absorbed, attention seeking and manipulative, unwilling to look at the truth, choosing instead to believe lies and cons. If I was speaking to a woman who’d been raped, or whose child had been murdered (and in the last 17 yrs of my career, I’ve done both) I wouldnt dream of telling them in their pain and grief that they were any of the things I (and other survivors) have been accused of here.
I really do solemnly believe with my gut, my mind and my heart that survivors of such painful experiences need support during their grief and pain. And pointing out how theyre wrong, even if they are, just doesnt ever seem all that beneficial when theyre at this point of…I dont know…fragile rage.
Dear Blitzen,
I know better than to put words in someone else's mouth. Do I have your permission to edit my post or would that be too scary???
Hugs,
CZ
CZBZ,
Don’t you think you should probably leave it the way it is?
Just so people can know your form?
winks
GD
I’m very aware of what my culpability was in remaining in the relationship.
I am fairly certain I havent used the word victim in reference to myself, opting instead to use the word survivor because I wanted to combine the experience of having been emotionally and physically abused as well as being empowered enough to leave and chart the course of my own recovery.
In terms of having had a crime committed against me, I dont care if its by my N partner or the strange guy who lives upstairs or some stranger off the street. No one has the right to do that to me whether I agree to sleep in the same bed with him or not, its irrelevant.
That something I really could not have imagined let alone protected myself against DID happen creates a situation where I get to feel I’ve been victimized by a perpetrator. I dont care if Sams written about it or not.
Seriously…I couldnt care less about The Book or its Author, or even his detractors arguments.
maybe later…MUCH later when its all an intellectual exercise.
But RIGHT NOW,
all I know is…
this moment in life is painful.
And I highly suspect tonight, I wont be the only member of this forum who feels it.
It's all very carefully crafted to play to one option on what people want to believe so they believe it...the little sh*t used me as an (unwitting) sounding board and even a (unwilling) guinea pig for some of his later "gospels". ~Blitzen
It is very painful dealing with rejection! We all know that after having our hearts ripped out and thrown away despite years of investment in an intimate relationship. If I can get over something like that, surely you can get over Vaknin.
"He reinforces learned helplessness in real victims, then presents his cult as a "savior". He also reinforces abusers who want to see themselves (or even, in some cases, consciously present themselves) as victims. Then puts it all together with "handmaidens" to use every sophistacated trick in the book to abuse and eradicate dissent."
Yea...it's rather nasty out there on Internet message boards. I know. I run one myself. Recovery boards are always messy when people are in pain; unfortunately, people who don't try to create a community are often the biggest critics. I've learned a lot the past five years as I figure most people do. Well, not everyone learns and changes...some folks keep singing the same song over and over 'til we get so tired of their tune we don't even hear them singing.
"Beats me how nobody ever seems to see that people who spend years studying the minutae of conditioning and emotional abuse are almost certain to be tempted to abuse that knowledge sooner or later, and with many it becomes a way of life...Reinforced by the cult."
Yes. I'm sure you are very familiar with emotional abusers.
As far as the cult thing goes though---I know a lot of folks now, Blitzen, and they are not ignorant zombies dancing to Vaknin's music. We do have the capacity to discern for ourselves...even if we can't quote the DSM-IV accurately. ha! One thing we are specialized in however, is our life experience with someone who appears to be a Narcissist. Vaknin's not the only dude on the planet talking about NPD.
You know what might be a good thing here though perhaps you've already done this? Argue with people who ARE educated professionals. Get on their message boards and discuss the ins-and-outs of psychological theory. Or maybe duke it out with people on Wikipedia where even a layperson can have their say? Your expertise will be appreciated by those who are dedicated to precise detail of the NPD.
But coming into a forum of wounded people who are barely able to say the word 'Abuse' and powering over them with clinical definitions is ridiculous. Most of us can't argue with your intellectual brilliance. So find those who can and when you get it all worked out, write a dissertation. Or put up a webpage telling people how to determine whether or not they're dealing with NPD or a Malignant Narcissist. Isn't there something more productive for you to do with your time than terrorize a forum of hurting people?
Now...I'd never be so bold as to speak so frankly with you Blitzen but since you're able to dish it out, I'm figuring you can take it.
Have a little empathy here! We've heard your song and it was rather nice when it was a new tune I hadn't heard before...but I've listened to your melody a few too many times now.
Tell me something new. That would be very refreshing!
CZBZ
*Edited for formatting purposes only. not a single word was deleted.
CZ
If I had a dollar for everytime I've been called a 'N', Phoenix, I'd be sitting on a throne instead of computer chair from Staples.
 Well, I'd have enough to pay for my extra large doubledouble from Timmies on the way to work tomorrow morning. Unfortunately though, that doesnt help tonight. If this was last week, or next week it likely wouldnt matter at all.
 Tonight is not a good night, yanno ? I have these nights every few weeks it seems and thats not anyone else's responsibility, but I have some hope if I put out a call for empathy on an N survivor forum, we all just might get some back.
ÂÂ
I cant be the only one here who could use it?
Since we are the survivors,
does that mean ,
we can vote blitzen off the island????????????
Hug mamolie
"but I have some hope if I put out a call for empathy on an N survivor forum, we all just might get some back." ~Phoenix
A little tip about message boards? If you want empathy and support, do not post on a thread with Sam's name in the title. ha!
Now, here's a new idea that might help you get the help you need on a message board focused on Healing from the Narcissistic RelatioNship:
List the criteria for NPD at the beginning of your thread and document, document, document as many criteria as possible before you say one thing about your X potentially having a NPD. Here, I'll link the criteria for you:
http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/narcissisticpd.htm
You may also want to examine the ICD just in case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICD
Then, make sure your documentation does NOT come from Sam Vaknin. Only credible research by professional psychologists who got their Ph.D from an Ivy League University, will suffice.
Once this task is completed and you have passed Benis's NPA test ( http://npatest.homestead.com/ ) with limited scores in aggression, I might suggest you take another test to be on the safe side. You can find the HSNS here:
HyperSensitiveNarcissismScale: http://www.wellesley.edu/Psychology/Cheek/sensitive.html
Document all results on your message.
At that point, you may be a good candidate for empathic replies to your pleas for support.
ha,
CZBZ
*Edited because I can't get those links to work properly! Not a single word was changed in the editing of this message.
God Bless you and Mamolie for making me laugh :D
A little tip about message boards? If you want empathy and support, do not post on a thread with Sam's name in the title. ha!
CZBZ
Don’t rewrite history AGAIN…it gives me gas when you do that…
It is very painful dealing with rejection! We all know that after having our hearts ripped out and thrown away despite years of investment in an intimate relationship. If I can get over something like that, surely you can get over Vaknin
(BITCHY)
I think you know as well as I do that I dumped Vaknin…so what aspect of your personal worth and integrity were you striving to demonstrate to us by stating the opposite?
(Just FYI Sam Vaknin isn’t fit kiss the feet of any guy I will never get over…I am big into the three Hs…
HOT
HORNEY
HONOURABLE )
I said:
…the little sh*t used me as an (unwitting) sounding board and even a (unwilling) guinea pig for some of his later “gospels”.
As evidence of how I know so much about:
It’s all very carefully crafted to play to one option on what people want to believe so they believe it…
Not to whinge for sympathy…
It’s just as obnoxious an agenda whoever he abused in the planning stages…it certainly isn’t necessary to carry a torch for the *sshole to recognize how despicable and damaging he is…
CZBZ said:
Yea…it’s rather nasty out there on Internet message boards. I know. I run one myself. Recovery boards are always messy when people are in pain; unfortunately, people who don’t try to create a community are often the biggest critics. I’ve learned a lot the past five years as I figure most people do. Well, not everyone learns and changes…some folks keep singing the same song over and over 'til we get so tired of their tune we don’t even hear them singing.
Sadly the only people allowed to “create communities” for any length of time around NPD are pretty abhorrent people with a pathological compulsion to control and an allergy to scruples in their own right, and the “communities” they create are often even worse than anything Samvak ever did directly.
CZBZ said:
But coming into a forum of wounded people who are barely able to say the word ‘Abuse’ and powering over them with clinical definitions is ridiculous. Most of us can’t argue with your intellectual brilliance. So find those who can and when you get it all worked out, write a dissertation. Or put up a webpage telling people how to determine whether or not they’re dealing with NPD or a Malignant Narcissist. Isn’t there something more productive for you to do with your time than terrorize a forum of hurting people?
Are you seriously trying to suggest that taking these same ignorant (hey! Her words, not mine guys…take it up with CZBZ) injured, souls and filling them up with a load of bigoted BS about a personality disorder in order to convince them that the only salvation is through Sam Vaknin, (financial analyst and convicted conman) and you as his representative on earth is a GOOD thing?
GET REAL!
Yes. I’m sure you are very familiar with emotional abusers.
Yep, and I spot them fast, and with uncanny accuracy too…
(Don’t you think, just entre nous, that it was a BIT of a mistake to try casting aspersions and flattery in the same post?
Trust me, both would have been FAR more convincing at least 12 hours apart.)
GD
Is that your best shot, Blitzen? come on...I know there's more where that came from!
"Don't rewrite history AGAIN...it gives me gas when you do that."
If you'll give me your address, Blitzen, I'll ship you a fat bottle of Rolaids. I can drop by the post office and mail it since I'm headed to the store for a new set of earplugs.
ha! Are we having FUN now??
CZ