and because it is, it would be absolutely lovely to have absolutes to apply to every relationship, including loving ones, but realistically thats not the case.
I don’t follow?
GD
Sure my exes behavior was hurtful... but by staying at that point it was my fault. Not accepting her for who she was and accepting she was different was my fault. Wanting her be like I wanted and act they way I wanted her to act was a mistake on my part. Continuing to let it happen was my fault too... I was much better off when I stopped being that way. ***
Yes, but it's all incredibly confusing when invovled with certain folks, is it not? My narcissitic bf just explained to me this weekend that he enthusiastically agrees and even gives adulation to people and the things they stand for and the boundaries and expectations they set, not because he necessarily really feels that way, but because he feels he HAS to agree with them if he wants them in his his life. For many reasons, he does want them in his life (like me)... for the attention, companionship, sex, whatever...and when I'm telling him I expect honesty and committment, he nods and agrees and even says things like "that is why I love you, you're the kind of person I always wanted to be with." Behind the scenes, or inside his head, another voice is speaking, and that voice is saying "well, she wants honesty, I guess I'll see if can give her that, I don't know, sounds kind of like a pain in the ass to me, but I will tell her I feel the same way to get and keep her in my life." Problem is, people beleive him! I belived him! Then, when his actions to do not match his enthusiatic words, people are hurt and bitterly disapointed. They want to leave to avoid further hurt, and they accept that perhaps they really aren't on the same page as it pertains to honesty or whatever. But when they say, "hey, buddy, looks like we're not a good match, lets end this before it gets any uglier than it already is"...he guilts them, "see, you are just like everyone else, you abandon me like everyone else, I'm trying so hard to learn and grow and you're just ready to blow-off the relationship over one little thing." You're thinking, gee, maybe I am being an a-hole, it's seems we are just not well suited to eachother and we should call it a day, but he seems so distraught at the thought of losing me, I guess he really loves me and is really trying, so I'll stay. More time and emotional investment is made. Of course,the same problems keep happening. As time goes on, it's not as easy anymore to just want to leave, there has been an investment of time now, and you have grown emotionally attached to this person. You love them and want them to be happy. Okay, so repeat the dysnfuncion dance, oh, say 4-6 times more over whatever, lets say a lack of honesty or trust, and yes, sooner or later, someone is going to say "okay, let's stop this, we keep doing this same dance, and you keep sucking me back in with the same guilt trips and manipulations, I'm otta here.' But it is hard, it does take a few go arounds before your good hearted expectations that people can change and grow become diminished. And, for some, the investment in time spent w/ the person and the highly romantic and skillfulll manipulation that ensues between the 'bad' times truly does a number on you. It's highly seductive. So, have I before in my life assessed a relationship in such a way that I determin it's just not working and it would be best for both of us to part. Yes, sure I have. When I try to handle my narcissitic bf the same way, it's a whole other ball of wax...unlike anything I have ever experienced before. He is not going to go quietly into the night with my oh so calm, reasonable explanations about why we probably should just not be together. His ability to lie to me and to himself is so amazingly wonderful and so skillfully done, that it's really hard to see the forset for the trees, and the guilt thing is highly manipulative but also highly effective. So, is it my fault that I'm still with my N bf when I really probably shouln't be at this point? When he has hurt me more than enough times for me to understand and accept that this is who he is and what's he's about? Yea, it's my fault. But, he's good (at manipulation). I mean, he's really really good. That cannot be discounted. Am I a victim? NO, but I do think I am playing with someone who is way out of my league (in terms of his ability to lie and manipulate and cajole and persuade himself and others) and therefore HE has an unfair advantage. That cannot be discounted.
peace, smg
I do think I am playing with someone who is way out of my league (in terms of his ability to lie and manipulate and cajole and persuade himself and others)
I should hope so too SMG chuckles
GD
Sure my exes behavior was hurtful… but by staying at that point it was my fault. Not accepting her for who she was and accepting she was different was my fault. Wanting her be like I wanted and act they way I wanted her to act was a mistake on my part. Continuing to let it happen was my fault too… I was much better off when I stopped being that way.
You said a mouthful there.
You don’t “flip” people…you either stay, and accept them for who they are…or you walk, sate yourself with chocolate, shiraz and 5" heels from ebay (NOT A WORD WY…unless you have already tried all three and found that they do not work for you, anyway :o) ) for a week and MOVE ON…(ok, you can stay hurt for as long as you need to, but don’t do the chocolate shiraz and 5" heels for longer than 7 days, Visa cannot afford for you to drag that part of “the healing process” out unduly).
There are just too many people who make a vocation, or at least an absorbing new hobby, out of “the healing process”. A lot of the time, it seems to me that all they are mourning is their inability to control and change someone to suit themselves.
GD
B said:But surely you are the first person to know when you cannot accept how somebody behaves? At the end of the day isn't that all any of us know about anybody else for sure?
Thats applying an absolute to a relationship, but in love there are very few clear absolutes. Sometimes the most loving thing you can do is to have hope and forgive and try again. Indeed, thats when my parents were the most loving with me in my own past.
In an abusive relationship that option isnt the smartest one to make is it? But where theres love, theres lots of room to err on the side of hope, and for many, smart doesnt enter the picture until hope dies. Thats when hindsight is 20/20...and thats when you learn, love is a messy affair.
I was a whole lot better off once I accepted my expartner was disordered too, and made the decision to orchestrate the end and walk away.
The problem was, the truth of his inability to change due to his disorder only came after reading Sam’s book, and only after reading it 4 times. It was very difficult to accept someone who kept telling me he was in control of his own destiny, made his choices of free will, and that he loved me, oh boy did he tell me he loved me…consistently over 7 years…difficult to accept that he really was not in control of his choices or his will and would continue , like an abusive partner,to be horrible, then be incredibly romantic, make promises, tell me what he felt I wanted to hear.
It took a long timefor my hope to die…but thats the nature of love I suppose.
The truth dawned on me slowly…just like his real nature crept into the life he was hoping he could construct (armed with the hope he knew I had in him to turn around).
There’s a reason there are old adages like “If only I knew then what I know now”.
But thats the nature of hindsight…its always 20/20.
But commitment, faith, love and hope were all I had for 7 years.
And I hear, my story aint all that different from many other survivors.
I think the point here is that, when we leave a relationship, it is healthier to take responsibility for our own choice by recognizing that we are leaving because we cannot accept our partner as they are, rather than because they will not change to keep us.
Sometimes people tell us “what we want to hear” simply because we will not listen if they try to tell us the truth instead.
GD
I think the point for me about a victim mentality is I wont blame myself for something I didnt know at the time. And after I did realize, and I did take responsibility for ending things, I do get to grieve the past, and part of that grieving for loss of all kinds for all people is anger.
And for some people who cant say theyve shared a similar experience, it makes sense they would hear that anger, and grief and the mourning of all the pain they went through, and call that “not taking responsibility”…when in fact its anything but.
And I know from my own experience, while I did hold onto my commitment and my hope (because at least for me those two things mean something incredibly weighty and valuable, theyre not lightly given, and theyre certainly not lightly taken away) longer than I wish I had, it did not mean I deserved getting the abuse I did…and I wouldnt tell the survivor of any abusive relationship that they deserved what they got either.
And at least when the pain of a breakup is still somewhat fresh, bandying about the term “responsibility” is likely to conjure up the idea theyre being told they deserved it because they stayed. Culpability may be a more appropriate term, and its the one I use for myself. Its more accurate andless likely to create defensiveness in the face of what sounds like harsh judgment.
I’m behind you guys, got to catch up.
So starting at the beginning.
Wastedyouth is the one with his head intact. He’s got it.
If one takes responsibility for ending a relationship, why would they not take responsibility for not ending it? This sounds to me a desire to blame someone else for one’s bad decisions, and a desire to only take credit for one’s good ones.
There is a saying “Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice and shame on me.â€Â
Truth of the matter in life is that we are all responsible for our actions. Judges will not listen to what action another took that caused some one to take an action that broke the law. Example: She had an affair on him and he got so upset, he got a gun and shot her. Does not matter what she did. Does not matter it was a reaction. He is responsible for his actions. He could have chosen a different reaction.
When you get in a relationship, whatever action the other person does, you have choices in how you react and you are responsible for the choices you make, not your partner, not his initial action. You can deny this but inside (if you are basically normal), you will feel responsible for what you do and your self esteem will be tied to that, not what your partner of anybody else tells you about yourself. This is engrained in us through upbringing, parents and society, etc. And when you feel bad but refuse to acknowledge that you are making choices that generate those bad feelings, you will repeat your behavior and make the same choices and continue feeling bad about yourself. And the only one who can change your bad feelings is you by taking responsibility for yourself and chosing actions that make you feel good about yourself. (And there is a difference in feel good actions and actions that make you feel good about yourself)
Now you do not leave a partner because they are narcissistic. You leave because you have made a choice to react differently to their actions. And you may not necessarily decide to leave. You may chose another course of a new reaction to that partner.
No one should be telling anyone else in broad generality spectrum, when to divorce. Anyone who tries is making those fundamental choices for you that you should be making for yourself. That is the problem in the first place - not taking responsibility and not making conscious choices, and it is only perpetuated.
So when the next NPD comes along, same old same old. And there you are doing exactly the same thing and feeling miserable.
well…if you accept that the other person is disordered, and I do, then I’m not really sure how much responsibility either of us should be accepting. I only know what my culpability is.
But I deserve to be hurt and angry and licking my wounds for what I suffered at his hands.
Thats not ever up for debate.
“same old same old” is exactly right if a survivor does not learn from their experience.
I have plenty of hope that as a survivor of an abusive relationship, I wont be mak9ing that mistake again. I’m not the same person I was when I entered into my last relatioNship. How can I be? I wasnt catatonic through the last 8 years. Thank gawd.
I’m not sure I’ve heard anyone here say they see themselves repeating their walk through Hell. In fact I have heard survivors talking about their fear of being hoodwinked again. And that tells me, if anything, theyre hypervigilant about the possibility, and are less likely to experiencing it again.
I hope so anyway. Of course it doesnt help that NPD’d and ASPD’d folk are so damn slippery and deceitful.
It would sure help if they all had tattoos on their foreheads.
It would sure help if they all had tattoos on their foreheads.
I seriously hate having to say this, because if I do, Sam can claim I have quoted him twice in one day, but the only way you will ever recognize an abusive relationship fast is by recognizing the abusive behavior, not by waiting for someone to label it.
GD
right
thats precisely the point I was making
bravo
There is a difference in raising children and having an adult relationship with a partner. Don’t want to get into this on children, but hope, forgiveness, trying again is all part of rearing and it includes efforts at trying to teach different behaviors to the child. That takes numerous actions and constant work often at certain issues.
This is not what adult relationships are about, NPD or not. Love should not be hid behind or used as an excuse for not dealing with something that needs to be dealt with.
Forgiving is a Christian process, something I think necessary to do. But forgiveness does not mean you simply ignore and forget. Turning the other cheek does not mean you put in position to be hit again. For example, if a person steals from you, you may forgive them and forget it, but you may also decide to never let them in your home again, or never let them use your credit card again. Usually there needs to repentance on the part of the other, amends made, etc. by the person before trust would be restored.
So you agree that the healthy way is to recognize whatever behavior we, as individuals, do not choose to tolerate in our relationships, and to take responsibility for that choice?
GD
amends being made – absolutely right
and thats why relationships with NPD’s or ASPD’s are so difficult, becaue they promise to make amends, and in my case he tried…a little…he began…a little…but the shadow side was something in the end he couldnt deny about himself anymore.
i’m glad we agree that raising children and having an adult relationship are two different things. Having said that, hope, forgiveness and trying again ARE part of a loving lifepartnership. I think thats likely the underpinning of “for better or worse”. Its faith, hope and charity. Its about believing in the goodness of someone, until your belief in that is eroded away.
Otherwise it seems love is reduced to a business arrangement “if you do not abide by the terms of the contract, the agreement is null and void and the part of the first part will be free to leave the party of the second part…blah blah blah”
As I said, love is too messy an affair for those kinds of absolutes.
You act out of love and hope, until there isnt anymore love or hope to act from, and then in your grief you take stock, make notes, process and you learn…and then youre prepared for the next relationship. You have keener eyes, keener ears, a keener brain thats more attuned to the signs and signals of behaviour you know now you wont tolerate.
Thats the learning curve of life.
absolutely right
we dont haveto be controlled by our emotions, but while we love, we love
while we hope, we hope
while we feel our commitment, we’re committed
thats why people stay married longer than their first feelings of boredom or resentment
because there are the feelings of the moment (you and I fought, now I’m resentful, and I’ve been resentful about this unresolved issue so much now, that I’m daydreaming and wishing I wasnt married to you anymore)
and there are feelings in the big picture (our relationship is made up of more than just this one issue we fight about, I didnt make my commitment to you lightly, I meant it, I love you and have enough hope in you that I’ll support you in trying to make the changes you say you want to make, I know there arent just good days and bad days, there are good years and bad years, and I’m in this for the long haul baby, cuz youre worth it).
Love is a messy affair.
But then so is life.
Let me see if I can find a quote from the book I’m reading this week, it addresses this kind of thing.
Its quite long so I’ll paraphrase:
You cannot push a survivor through a piece of learning. You cant chew an experience and transfuse it into their arteries. You cannot make their learning take place in your time, at your pace but in their own time and pace. The most you can be satisfied with is planting a seed. You need to have faith in the process of the survivor, and the fact that important changes will take place in small units.
One cant underestimate the wisdom of letting a survivor stay confused so that they may learn to evolve their own clarity.
One needs to have a good sense of timing, a capacity to detect where a survivor can be reached and moved emotionally, a knowledge of where their buttons are and the compassion and dignity to know when and how to push them constructively and in a way that wont dissolve their trust in you, and the flexibility to switch gears, let go of some things and move on to other more lively areas…otherwise you take the risk of entrenching them in the stage theyre presently stuck in.
I think the bottom line is compassion. The survivor’s path to culpability is through compassion, compassion from others, and compassion for themselves.
I don’t think it is for any of us to push anybody else’s buttons, or to push anyone but ourselves through anything.
People have to decide for themselves, in their own time, what to do with any situation that makes them unhappy, but when they have decided, they do not have the right to evade responsibility for their decision by pseudo-diagnosing their partner or demonising a medical condition.
GD