btd100,
I think that it is unfair to pose that some should be careful not to become Narcissistic as well,because they choose to assert themselves in this fight.If self preservation and strong opinions in survivors appear to be narcissistic,i am sorry.On this forum we have all loved,gived,tried,denied ourselves,wondered,waited,hoped,cared,dreamed,believed and loved some more.
We are all here for healing and none of us find narcissism appealing.
Mary, I know how you feel, I loved with all my heart too.
I think the N’s are emotionally immature stuck in an early stage of emotional development. Like children acting on impulses and throwing temper tantrums. Trying to manipulate mommy and daddy to get their way. They lack empathy because it’s all about them all the time (like children). They love like getting a new toy on christmas day and by next christmas it’s in the toy box broken and battered, new toys have arrived and life is grand. Yes they love but do they have the emotional stamina for long term comittment? I think it depends on how toxic the particular narcissist is.
This is to btdt100 I don’t think I understood your repy exactly what are you saying?
It is one thing to have that narcisistic “Achilles heal” and it`s a whole other ball game,to have a narcissistic personality disorder.It is that percieved narcissism that prevents us from being self-deprecating thus enabling us to just RUN.
healed, it is what I see the direction of this board. It goes along this logic 1. I loved him, 2. he did not love me back correctly so to make me feel loved (good) 3. Therefore, my love should be for myself and not him. And not only that, he merits hate and depising.
Maybe we should discuss what “love” of another really means. Does love mean that the person we love is suppose to make us “feel” some certain way? Please think about what I am saying.
DoubleDee, yes exactly. The emotions of the NPD are not normal. I can completely identify with the experience of being with an adult whose emotions go wild and uncontrolled like a 2 or 3 year old. The catch is that we learn thinking, thought processes - we do not learn emotions. Those are physiological. And when you see an adult on the floor, screaming, whaling, emotionally out of control, something is VERY WRONG PHYSICALLY, NOT INTELLECTUALLY. Maybe they are are on drugs or drunk - but that is physical isn’t it - not psychological, not moral, not of CHOICE!! Psychology that got shooved down our throats as if it were fact is a major scam. Freud is dead - he has long been disproven. My gosh, the man was a cocaine addict, he had the most horrid dispicable attitude towards women. Throw him in the garbage where he belongs. Put in his place science. Where in the world does this stuff about “false” self and “real” self come from? This is Samuel Varkin - not the APA nor the AMA. There is NOTHING scientific about that!! So he made it up as an anology that made sense to many in their limited knowledge base in their mind in the absense of more intelligent knowledge. That is all that is. I do not buy that at all.
Do not fall into the power of suggestion. Do not take simplistic explanations that have no truth to them. And I am not challenging the experience, I am challenging the explanations that some offer for them. They are dishonest and lead down the path of what I consider evil.
You first have to understand personality. I like A. M. Benis’ work on that - Mendalian genetics. http://narcissism.homestead.com/ It is all theory but quite interesting and will probably be developed upon. We all have narcissism within us. Geez, what does self preservation derive from? This is a major point of Christianity, surrendering ourselves - our narcissistic side as god to the ultimate creator, being humble. this board is suppose to be about “disorder”. So what distinguishes order from disorder?
I mean if we are talking character and choice, than a narcissist would actually only be an egotist. And an egotist needs a partner who is also an egotist. But that is not what the “disorder” represents.
By now most of us are aware that there is very limited infomation or studies done regarding this disorder compared to Bipolar and the host of others.From what i understand,many Ns do not seek help and when they do,therapist find counciling extremely challenging,thus therapy ends before any progress is made.When i found the Sam Vaknin site ,it was quite helpful because i had experienced most of which he explained. I loved N.He is a beautiful man,he is brilliant,charming,talented and is the only child of a single mother.He has shared stories of sad times in his childhood.I could see how the damage was done.I loved and nurtured him. I am not angry at him,i do not intend to be mean.Since he lacks empathy and compassion,which he did say to me while we were happy,i cannot reason with him.All i have done is cut off my Narcissistic supply.We are not here to bash Ns,we are here for self preservation and healing.
Some of us may have a greater treshold for longterm relationships with N`sand some of us do not.
Someone commented that they could not decide which was harder;ending the relationship or staying.Please do not misinterpret our responses.
healed, I have schizophrenia in my family. At this time in the 21st century, it is very obviously a physcial problem although there are people who still believe in fantasies that mother caused it, or they chose it. Schizophrenics do not function well in relationships, jobs, etc. My cousin died last year. He was extremely good looking, very well educated, very refined, quite a gentleman, and actually quite wealthy from inheritance. But he was schizophrenic which means that most days of his life, he was sane, but then there were those other days when he was like on a different planet. He could not function in our world as it is structured now to take care of himself.
Now if someone came up and said, oh I fell in love with him and he failed to be a reciprocal partner, he refused to listen to the couselor and change, I am so devasted and hurt, he is a @#%, I would look at them back with “You must be nuts yourself.”
Now personality disorders are not completely out of reality like a schizophrenic - if so, they would be diagnosed as schizophrenic. They function in the world for the most part. Their dysfunction shows in close interpersonal relationships. this is where particular emotions are revealed. It is not that they do not reveal themselves to the rest of the world as in a false self. The rest of the world is not intimate. It is those emotions of intimacy that are not functioning correctly.
I am not trying to be arbitrary - I am trying to say there is something wrong besides a failure in character. The person most know is an integral part of who the PD is. It is not false. Just something physically is dysfunctioning.
Btdt100,
Schizophrenia and NPD present differently.From what little i know,the former illness manifests itself in a way that prevents one from having a long term relationship;however,there is no abuse.NPD tears at the very existence of the partner.Again,when our emotions are being toyed with we are in no place to understand.
Btdt100,
I understand that unlike most of us here,both yourself and Maryb2100 have lost husbands who you have shared were Narcissistic.You have also stated that you were having a difficult time,i empathize.
I also imagine that the loss of a loved one regardless of what our experiences may have been with them is painful.We may also be dealing with different things in our healing process.
We are only human and are expressing our feelings.We also need honest dialogue.However,when i pray i ask God to help me to walk in complete forgiveness.This may take some time,but i am determined that forgiveness is necessary for healing.
go back to John Nash, the character in the movie “A Beautiful Mind”. Aside from his delusions which were to extreme at times, he was NPD. They did not have personality disorder diagnosis at the time he was forced into treatment. Paranoid schizophrenics are abusive and violent, and he was at times towards his wife. She had great difficulty in knowing what was true and what was not.
The personality disordered will present altered realities. They are considered to be lying because they know the realty presented is not real but they lack the mechanisms of guilt, whatever those are, that say you should not be lying. The schizophrenic though, actually believes their lies to be true. Both can pass lie detector tests. What are those about? Measuring physiological functioning? Point being, something is not functioning physiologically. It is a fine line. And knowing my NPD 40 years, they do often really believe their own lies the very same as a schizophrenic.
Btdt100,
I encourage this debate.It may also be important to look at NPD and our experiences from many angles.Many on this forum have read most of the books available,shared stories,and feel like they are experts on NPD,yet the pain persist.Your input can lend the thought provoking insights we may need.
I am off to bed.
God Bless,
Healed1
Im sure none of us want to become narcissists !! all people have some narcissitic tendancies …its healthy to have some …as children we all have lots !! But as we grow and develop we become empathetic to the needs and feelings of others to a greater or lesser degree and we lose lots of the N traits. We have to remember most things go along a spectrum , rarely is it black and while but a vast area of grey between the black and white and we all sit somewhere along this spectrum. All the N are somewhere along the line too not all sitting in the blackest black…
Most of us here are hurting so maybe at times we sound bitter or vengeful …wow I know sometimes Ive hated my N so much Ive wished a million pains on him. Mostly I dont feel like that but Im not gonna feel guilty or bad that at times I do feel so angry etc… they are my feelings and Im allowed to feel and work thro them. I dont intend to turn into an N in the process…I often feel angry at me too, cos I know so much of this has come from me and not him…
My friend defo seems like a spoiled child at times. Not all the time, he can be the nicest person I know too and I mean genuinly so, not cos of stories he tells. It really feels as tho he missed out important stages in growing tho. He tries hard to be lovely and nice at times… but we shouldnt have to try it should be relatively natural to be lovely and nice.
He just so often never stops to think things thro…he thinks what he wants and then forgets to think how will it impact on others for eg. when I stayed with him last year we shared his bed. Over the weekend his boyfriend was gonna stay and my first thoughts were…I wonder how hell sleep us??? I didnt say anything until the night before the boyf was due and my friends answer was…“Oh I havent thought about it…”…EXACTLY… ok in most situations this wouldnt even really be an issue…hed sleep with his boyf…but he knows how strong my feelings are for him, he knows it would be hard for me… ok this is all my fault i know, my problem not his but anyone with any empathy would have thought…ok tricky situation lets think of the best way to sort it causing least pain.
As it was he slept with me and his boyf ended up being really hurt. OK dont really know who was to blame here…i know I blamed me cos I should have proved I loved him enough to not be selfish and say…you sleep with him of course !!! but for once in my life I thought of ME and what I wanted…(ok there was more behind the upset with his boyf not to do with me but Im already writing too much…)
I get so fed up with me …its so good reading on here from others who feel as Ive felt…but itd be even better if someone shared my crazy damn story too…I feel like a real freak somehow…
ok ill shh now as Im going way off topic
Maby my husband did love me in the only way he could that’s something I will never know this side of the grave but in my situation as I go back and look at everything I think I see the whole picture now and I’ve looked at this from many angles, I had to figure this all out in order to heal,Do I think my husband was the bad guy?No, I think he was a tormented soul and my peace for him is knowing that his lifelong torment is over and for the first time in his life he now is at peace,I believe my husband is with God and he is finally free.God looks at the heart of man.I am at a place now in my life where I have to heal ,and I am.It has taken me a long time to get to where I am.I do not have NPD.I was victumized by someone who was ,and I’m trying to turn this tragedy in my life around and have some good come out of it.My husband and I had private counseling,along with counseling from our church and doctors.I still have counseling .Like I said before this is an emtional hell .I’m not bitter or angry .Forgiveness was in my heart a long time ago,the pain and shatterness of my heart is being healed also.I see the light at the end of the tunnel and I’m going for it .
Ladies and gentlemen - let me direct your attention to center ring!
Boy, it is easy to run off the track in a conversation here isn’t it? Indicative of just how difficult and complex our thought processes are right now. I look back and realize that this thread started as a simple reaffirmation - do any of us say enough affirmations on a routine basis? “I am ", "I will”, etc. Our mind is powerful and what we “feed” it becomes who we are. I think this thread began with a simple discussion about the fact that it’s time WE feed our brains, not our N’s. Not to be vengeful, spiteful, or hateful. But, ultimately, this is our only shot here on earth and WE are responsible for us.
I found (find) that looking at my mess this way helps: I do believe that what my N felt in the beginning was love - as HE feels it - as close to what we believe it should be, and is to us. What I felt was love - but, here’s the difference - I love unconditionally and he can’t - period, end of story. It doesn’t matter WHY he can’t, he can’t - and I am not willing to go through the rest of my live settling.
I (as the thread began), am going to go back to building my self-esteem and embracing who I am. And, if I sometimes need silly songs to help, so be it. If sometimes I want to name a new board a silly name, so be it. Humor and laughter is the best way out of any down/depression.
Let’s live.
Well ladies, I am some one who has 41 years in with an N, I have followed this illness through all the stages of life and all the life events along the way. I lived through it all, lived for the normal times and rode out the bad. I knew something was wrong with him,MY EMPATHY, searched for help for 20 years now. I have survived an emotional holocaust, nearly destroyed by a horrific disorder that no one knows about. I have had the patience of Jobe and the compassion of a saint, trying to work on this relationship of mine. I can tell you that my H has zero capacity to love. I know for a fact, if I were to leave him, he would not feel a thing he would go on and not miss one thing about me. I have asked him that question, what would you miss if I left? He sat there with a blank look and could not come up with one thing. He must have believed everything he said to me that I was horrible at everything, so he could not come up with anything at all, it is devestating to say the least. His disorder could never let him give me credit for anything. I was responsible, competent, loving and caring, that made me the enemy. Their lives are all about them, their unconscious suffering, and getting through each day. I was the enemy that needed to be destroyed, there are no fond memories of the enemy, and there are no memories of the torture inficted on me. It was just something his unconscious brain told him to do, like a natural reflex. I kill flies and never think about all the ones I have killed through the years, come in my house and it is a refex to get rid of them. N"s have a serious problems with memory, it is part of the disorder, they only remember things that involved them. They even rewrite history, they tell stories that make you question your memory and your sanity, they believe what they are saying. That is another part of the confusion of living with them. Since they carry only good memories of them selves, each day they get up is a new day. They carry no baggage along with them, nothing to work on or out. They are actually an adult with the mind of a three year old, wanting unconditional love from you. A three year old can be taught right from wrong, taught to have emapthy for others, and N can not. If you want to discuss LOVE and what it is and what you expected from an adult, an N does not love. I disagree with you Mary, I sit in my family room with my H everyday, there is not an ounce of caring in this man. He cares only about him self and his image outside. Yes I know it is an illness, but when dealing with an N, it does have to come down to him or you, that is not narcissistic, that is survival, because they will destroy you. You have to get to the part where you are outraged by your treatment, it has to be acknowledged so you can start moving on and healing from it. To deny that treatment keeps you hooked into him. If a stranger treated you so badly you would walk away and never speak to them again, this was someone you loved, you had no way of knowing there was an underlying illness. You have to hate them and what they did to get yourself on the road to wanting to recover. This is so difficult because everything is so not normal, your feelings and wanting to work on the relationship are normal, your love is real, but you have been dealing with an N, instead of getting that back, it makes the behavior worse from them. At this point in time I have to be mad, I have to be outraged at the way I have been treated, I have to even hate him, I have the empathy of a saint, I can’t give him any more, I need it all for myself right now. I honestly can not afford to feel sorry for him, nor do I wish to discuss his side, I have lived it and been on the receiving end of it for 41 years. I do not see talking about what they have done as bashing, it is a reality of this disorder and a warning to others of what lies ahead if you stay. You can not clean it up or make it look or sound pretty, it was pretty awful. I am expressing how I feel right now at this point in time, I don’t want to have to think if it sounds cruel or unsympathic to all the Ns out there. My neglected spirit deserves all of my energy and attention right now, it is down to him or me surviving, he nearly destroyed me, he is not capable of caring or even realizing what he has done, I can’t let him or his illness take any more of my life from me, I have never hated or disliked anyone in my entire life, this goes against everything that is me but this is where I have to be right now to be able to survive. I know he is not capable of love, unless you redefine it, pepsie and french vanilla for my coffee, how he shows he cares. That is just not enough and not love by any stretch of the imagination. He sucked 40 years of empathy out of me, and if I let him, he will consume my entire life. You have to get mad, you have to think of yourself, or you will be stuck and never get away. hugs mamolie
I have said this many times before.Surviving and moving forward after a relationship with an N is a fight.Mamolie,i agree when you say that you have to get angry about how you have been treated, especially when you have seen the light.
I remember those dark days when i did not have a name for this illness.He would hurt me and when i brought it to his attention,he would tell me that i was PMSing and i would believe it.
I read these postings and get a glimpse of each persons personality.I have read of the confusion,disappointment,abuse and pain.The fact that we hold on is because of the love we feel.Ladies,you are wonderful,beautiful,special,gorgeous,way too fabulous to be treated as less.Mamolie,you are STRONG.You have endured and still turn around and nurture so many of us.Maryb2100,when i read that you would cry as you read your Bible ,underlining scripture and speaking Gods word over your life;it brought tears to my eyes,because i have been there.angiezee,your sense of humor lately has been like fresh air.lonelyplace,you just say what you have to say!!!(smile).Doubledee,you never forget to share what you have read,thanks.Narcissist broken,i am not worried about you.As far as i am concerned you are healed.btdt100,we are all brothers and sisters in this;we have all known NPD and it`s effect.
To all of our other friends at careplace,we will all come through,because to get through,you have to go through.
angiezee, I do have problems with your sense of humor. nothing is funny about my experiences, nor I think most who have sincerely been involved with a person who has what is called NPD, especially their children. NOTHING FUNNY AT ALL. My experience is not about some “dude” I had the hots to totsey with for a few weeks who I thought rode a white horse and was going to finish my life out in a big fancy house in “The” upsey neighborhood. The shattering of your delusions and your pains are no where equivalent the same as mine. I will say no more because the rest of what I would say is not very nice.
mamolie, I’ve gone the distance too, a bit further maybe in seeing the end of the story - death. Well I have not gotten into the part of the story where I felt he should be committed but I could not because we had divorced - I had no legal standing. NOBODY ELSE FREAKIN CARED!! NO ONE LISTENED TO ME!! I did not need affirmation, I need rights, legal ability to do something but I had none. At his end, he was bilked of his money and possessions from opportunists - I am trying to get the worst of them in jail, that guy will likely sail free with thousands of dollars of stuff. The others I will not be able to do anything as much as I am humanly revolted. I am talking his children’s inheritance. It was evil, horrid, beyond my human comprehension of human deceny. Do I feel good now? Oh no.
Yes you have to take care of yourself, first and foremost. Second, get him to a neurologist (preferably you will find better at the nearest academic hospital - that is where the better, smarter doctors are who are expected to be most current in new knowledge of the scientists.) All I am trying to share is that there is not a happy ending to your story at this point, whether you leave him or not, and worse for you both if you leave him. He has a brain disorder - a physical medical problem. Medicine does not have the answer - the solution. But they can help manage the worse that may come, and likely will come. They can explain, they can give support. This stuff about false selves and real selves, living a lie, narcissistic supply, is bull shit, helps Varkin sell books and that is it. You have gone the distance because you are loving, a good wife, a good mother, you have values. Do not negate these within yourself. These are your greatest virtues.
doubledee, they are like children. I saw mine at times literally on the floor like a 2 year old throwing a tantrum. At other times, I saw him handle himself to supreme in the company of nobel prize winners and top names in medicine in this country. ??? It is impulse control - frontal lobe of the brain. Same part that is controlling lying. Same part of the brain that makes empathy occur. Same part of the brain responsible for self introspection. Functions that are necessary for loving and intimate relationships to occur. These are functions that people who are in thoe close intimate relationships see dysfunction The functions for social, non intimate relationships work fine. Wow, OMG, it is a mother of all mother problems to deal with because all the other parts of the brain are working fine. Worst of all for us, is the intellectual part of the brain so they rationalize and project onto us what is happening. Our problem is for not holding to our own perceptions - not believing in ourselves. They do not take that from us. We give it up - that is our mistake.
btdt wrote:
Yes you have to take care of yourself, first and foremost. Second, get him
to a neurologist (preferably you will find better at the nearest academic
hospital - that is where the better, smarter doctors are who are expected to
be most current in new knowledge of the scientists.) All I am trying to
share is that there is not a happy ending to your story at this point,
whether you leave him or not, and worse for you both if you leave him. He
has a brain disorder - a physical medical problem. Medicine does not have
the answer - the solution. But they can help manage the worse that may
come, and likely will come. They can explain, they can give support.
Sam:
Only a qualified mental health diagnostician can determine whether someone
suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) and this, following
lengthy tests and personal interviews. Current scholarly thinking is that
NPD is not a brain disorder in the strict neurological sense - although of
course the brain is involved because it is involved in all human processes.
Neurologists do not treat NPD and will refer you to a psychiatrist who will
then refer you to a clinical psychologist or therapist. Better go directly
to a clinical psychologist or therapist.
These may be of help - click on the links:
Brain and Personality
http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders39.html
Narcissists, Medication, and Chemical Imbalances
http://samvak.tripod.com/faq70.html
Axes of Mental Health Disorders
http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders3.html
Misdiagnosing Narcissism - Asperger’s Disorder
http://samvak.tripod.com/journal72.html
Narcissists and Mood Disorders
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5067
What is NPD
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/1.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/npdglance.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq82.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faqpd.html
Healing Narcissism
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq63.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq77.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq70.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq12.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/10.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/case03.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq31.html
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/abusefamily8.html
http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders37.html
http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders45.html
doubledee, they are like children. I saw mine at times literally on the
floor like a 2 year old throwing a tantrum.
Sam:
The Narcissist as Eternal Child
http://samvak.tripod.com/narcissistinfantile.html
At other times, I saw him handle himself to supreme in the company of nobel
prize winners and top names in medicine in this country. ??? It is
impulse control - frontal lobe of the brain. Same part that is controlling
lying. Same part of the brain that makes empathy occur. Same part of the
brain responsible for self introspection. Functions that are necessary for
loving and intimate relationships to occur. These are functions that people
who are in thoe close intimate relationships see dysfunction The functions
for social, non intimate relationships work fine. Wow, OMG, it is a mother
of all mother problems to deal with because all the other parts of the brain
are working fine. Worst of all for us, is the intellectual part of the brain
so they rationalize and project onto us what is happening. Our problem is
for not holding to our own perceptions -
not
believing in ourselves. They do not take that from us. We give it up -
that is our mistake.
Sam:
The Brain - Metaphors of the Mind - Part I
http://samvak.tripod.com/meta.html
The Interrupted Self
http://samvak.tripod.com/sacks.html
The Narcissist and Psychopath as Criminals
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5003
The Narcissist is Above the Law
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4983
The Narcissist as Liar and Con-man
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4951
Take care there!
Sam
btdt100 - boy, talk about slammed between the eyes!! Never, for a minute was I minimizing your pain and suffering with humor - it’s how I deal with mine and, obviously, offended you. For that I am sorry, but this board isn’t just about you and your issues and I take a little offense at you suggesting that my pain is trivial in comparision to yours. It was my impression that we were all here to support each other - regardless the story. I suppose I’ll go back to lurking mode since you seem I have nothing to offer and I’ll keep my two cents to myself. I’m fragile too, and I don’t need this.