Wikiphrenia/Folie A plusiers

Narcissistic personality disorder
#1

http://www.insanities.org/insanities/

Folie àDeux

Folie àDeux means “a madness shared by two,” and Folie àplusieurs means “a madness of many.” It is more commonly known in psychological circles as shared psychotic disorder or induced delusional disorder. These disorders occur when a person has been exposed to the paranoid thoughts, delusional beliefs, or magical thinking of a disordered individual, and begin to accept them into their own belief system. Typically, those involved tend to be isolated with little interaction with the outside world, and spend a great deal of time with the originator of the magical beliefs. After years of narcissistic abuse, I could almost say I was certain that I suffered with a bout of it myself, but I’d prefer to call that by it’s proper term, “brainwashing.” Everyone else calls it “gaslighting.”

A brain is full of thoughts, and it spends a great deal of time thinking about what goes on in other peoples heads. In an unhealthy and abusive relationship, exposure to negative thoughts will eventually lead you to take on another’s as your own. Constant exposure to the abuse will also lead to a reinforcement of your own negative thoughts. I was once exposed to so much negativity and delusions from a disordered individual that I was eventually convinced I was the abuser. I was convinced my behavior was irrational and delusional. This is where being solitary becomes very bad for you. A brain needs outside sources to bounce its thoughts off of and to learn and rationalize. The brain needs to suppress the improper thoughts and give voice to the positive ones. This becomes very tough when you have no place to validate your thoughts in the real world. You’ll begin to believe anything, and it makes it very hard to be a schizoid. Thankfully I had people in my life who knew I wasn’t actually abusive.

I believe this is the root of many forms of depression. Depression is in its own right, is a form of self brainwashing. The negative thoughts take over, their connections get strengthened, and there’s little room left for positive thoughts to validate themselves or reinforce themselves and take hold. Isolation becomes the enemy. Its no wonder abuse and depression go hand in hand. I believe the cure for depression is to not give voice to the negative thoughts, and to validate and give voice to the positive ones. Eventually, the bad thoughts lose their connections and the positive thoughts take root, and the bad chemicals go away. This is known as cognitive behavioral therapy.

I’d like to say I’ve been witness to the “madness of many”, just because it sounds incredibly cool. I know a group of people who hold on strongly to a belief system that is completely false. I’d like to say they have all taken on the delusional beliefs of a narcissist and now live in their own delusional worlds. However, when people take on false beliefs based on hearsay and lies, it becomes known as “mass hysteria.” This, I have witnessed first hand. Despite evidence to the contrary, and evidence of the known unreliability and mental stability of the source, they began to take the lies of the delusional individual as truth. They even make claims of witnessing it first hand when they hadn’t. I even saw a girl take the belief system and apply it to the past, rewriting history with one that more closely resembled the new belief system. Not only were people convinced of things that never happened , but they rewrote the past to incorporate events that never occurred. Once the false belief system is in place, its easy to assume things have always been that way.

Its easy to take it personally when that whole belief system is a big ball of lies about yourself spread by a psychopath that you’ve wronged in some way, and its quite confusing when it conflicts with your own reality and those that know you best. Its easy to take it personally when it robs you of friends and respect. Perhaps I can now take some comfort in knowing that they are all suffering from a mental disorder. I can just chalk another one up to mental illness. But if part of the lie is that your a delusional paranoid freak, am I just reinforcing the delusion? That’s the catch-22. Either way, I have science on my side.

I wonder, is every problem in the world actually a mental health issue?

#2

It’s a brilliant article WastedYouth,

Just one tiny point that leapt at me though.

“Gaslighting” is actually only a term for a specific kind of conditioning, or brainwashing.

It’s the kind where deliberately deny evident truth in order to create cognitive dissonance.

I feel an old article coming on…from late 2000 (Hey!! Did I “coin the phrase gaslighting” first? Can I get royalties? Please?)

How to get away with Murder
OR
"Gaslight’s" Hidden Legacy to all Aficionados of Domestic Abuse

Too good to be true?

No, there is a way, I promise, as long as you have the self discipline to restrict yourself to “crimes against the person”.

It is also a good idea to adhere to the first principle of personal abuse:
“Never place your personal safety at risk.”

Women, especially smaller women, and children are always the safest targets.

There is a very simple knack to getting away with almost anything.

Before embarking on any course of domestic abuse you take the precaution of establishing that your target is “nuts”.

“Nuts” is not a terribly technical term, but it’s the best one to use here as a collective noun for all the different aspects that could prove useful. Here are a few:

* a) Delusions (Always preferable to deceit. Accusing your target of lying brings in a confrontational, "he-said, she said" aspect that alienates your public as well as risking damage to your essential image as a genuinely concerned spouse/parent. Also see c) ).

* b) Instability (It is relatively easy to actually destabilise the target and may happen quite spontaneously. This aspect is SO useful in every sense and should never be ignored.)

* c) Volatility (The keyword here is "RAGE". Not just any rage, but unprovoked, irrational rage. The most recent and effective model is called "Borderline Rage". If you can manage to establish THAT then most of your work is already done for you in the form of a very active Public lobby fighting to establish, among other things, that smaller, weaker people rage against bigger, stronger people for absolutely no reason other than a Borderline Personality Disorder. An additional bonus is that if you can establish "Borderline Rage", directly because of the tireless work of the same lobby point a) almost establishes itself. Borderline Personality Disorder is, without doubt, an unchangeable "best buy" for the budding Domestic Abuser. It is so flexible and easy to apply to the target too.)

Obviously it takes a little work to establish these things.

One of your most effective tools is called “Gaslighting” after a film from the 50s starring Ingrid Bergman (catch it if you get the chance).

The story revolves around a very practical Domestic Abuser putting in the necessary time and effort required to convince his target (and the rest of the world) that she is insane in order to avail of her inheritance.

It has a rather alarming ending where a besotted young man and, I believe, an elderly Doctor, rescue the target within a hairsbreadth from the asylum.

Don’t let this discourage you.

This is only a film after all.

In real life there is very little risk of anyone noticing or being prepared to intervene to ruin all your hard work.

In the film the “hero” employs a very simple strategy of convincing his wife she imagines things. Not significant things, small trivial things, things no one would usually have the time or reason to lie about. The best example is where he takes a small broach of no real value to his target and hides it. When she notices it’s loss (quite quickly) he then “finds” it in a place where she appears to have hidden it herself.

There are so many variations on this basic theme that can be employed on a day by day basis to devastating effect.

It works best if you display no hostility either to or about the target. Let people prise your distress at your target’s little “eccentricities” from you, don’t flaunt it, just a hint here and there. People will ask all by themselves.

I say “almost” everything, because I am afraid getting away with actual murder can be a little too tricky to attempt.

There are a few work arounds though, should an actual deceased situation ever prove desirable.

Let me offer you an example from life, and almost the same year as “Gaslighting” was released.

These days Divorce is not the same emotive issue that it was 50 years ago, when the effects of a divorce could be devastating to any respectable abusive family. Divorce caused “talk”, fingers would be pointed, awkward questions would be asked, the entire respectable abusive family would come under the most uncomfortable scrutiny. I don’t think there is a single modern equivalent of the potential impact of a divorce on a respectable abusive family, except perhaps for the target to slip so far out of control as to seek independent counselling outside of the family’s established dynamic, or begin to write memoirs.

So when a daughter and target formed a firm resolution to seek a divorce (grounds, infidelity) in the 50s what was an abuser to do?

The answer is simple and obvious, convince the target that the adultery of her spouse is another delusion among many. It is advisable to involve all available medical and psychiatric resources (even in the 50s there were plenty if you really looked) towards this end. It is also advisable to involve as many neighbours and relatives as you can, because this strategy is far from plain sailing, and the erring spouse could ruin everything by making an unconditional confession at any moment. This causes plenty of hostility between the spouses and destroys all trust, which you can use to your advantage if you have laid the right groundwork.

You have to spent a lot of quality time with the target, helping them to accept that they are deluded. You have to show a great deal of concern about the target to as many people as possible. If you are really clever you can prevent the target’s erring spouse from realising that you are presenting their confessed adultery as factitious. You can even use their guilt to persuade them to refrain from discussing their error further with the target for the sake of the target’s well being.

You can also, possibly, play the ace card of pointing out to the erring spouse the considerable financial disadvantages of a divorce (it is best to be very subtle and tactful about this, emphasise the target’s well-being rather more strongly than the financial aspects, guilty and erring spouses are very resistant to anything that makes them feel insensitive).

If you lay your ground-work well, one day it is quite possible that the target will get up, bring everyone a nice cup of tea in bed, make everyone a decent breakfast, and then, after they have all left for business, suspend herself by the neck from the bannisters just in time for your weekly visit.

(This piece is dedicated to my Grannie, who died before I could get born and know her, beyond a few ambiguous stories that never added up, and the files from her inquest. It is also dedicated to the, too many, women to name who have posted articles about their own “Gaslighting” and abuse, that finally accumulated, added to my own and made me cold-bloodedly enraged enough to write this piece. All persons suggested here are long dead.)

GD

#3

My husband thought the GP was full of shit, let alone a psychologist. Never in a million years would he present himself there to be diagnosed with anything!!

It is NOT A MYTH that these people go undiagnosed. Its not an illness, it is a DISORDER. Many, if not MOST remain undiagnosed. And will continue to They live in blissfull and complete ignorance.

i AM IN NO DOUBT about why my marriage failed. he was outraged that I left him and ceased to provide all those uselful extensions. I lived up close and personal for 15 years, no professional is ever going to know more about him than me. You can insinuate that I dont know who and what he is all you like, cos one thing is for sure…you dont.

#4

I will tell you what disorder is:

Who would sell a family heirloom (grandiose and amoral) and keep the
money ( selfish) and lie about why ( unborn child’s private
education) and go into debt over a projector screen tv, but can’t
afford cable (which had to come out of the ceiling (grandiose) and a
MAHOGANY murphy bed (HAS TO BE UNIQUE) and assume that someone or
something else is going to pay for it. And offer money to the other
sibling, who he knew would decline, but ask everyone to keep it
secret. And twist the story when she found out so that their
sibling always is the VICTIM and says poor me too much. And takes
a three week vacation with famous celebs (who pay for it all) and
thinks that they work so hard that they are justified to live this
way. But have never heard of “daycare” and are getting rid of their
car so that their wife can take the “L” to get groceries because it
is better for the environment. And refuses to live in the suburbs
because it is beneath them, although they assume their child is going
to private school on someone else’s dime. ENTITLEMENT! And doesn’t
feel a stitch of guilt or remorse that he chooses to live this way
and assumes it is normal. He is known for BOSSING his wife around,
who is 10 years younger. He admitted to her that prior to her he was
INCAPABLE OF LOVE (RED FLAG) she was under the assumption that she
married a prince who was going to sweep her off her feet…She is
IN FOR IT…

Can anyone else explain this as NOT Being NPD? WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE?

On Nov 13, 2007, at 8:47 AM, nickinstant wrote:

#5

That is SUCH a brilliant piece, isn’t it Susiejo?

At bottom, it often seems their only point is to call the “man who dun them wrong” “disordered”, instead of “a bstrd” (or similar), and tie him into all that lovely, extravagant, third person, self castigation/pity/indulgence of Sam Vaknin.

They just don’t seem to care whether their ex fits the criteria of REAL clinical and academic NPD…Sam has told them that NPD is the term for nasty, devious, deceitful abusers…and they are afraid that if they don’t label their ex “NPD” no-one will think he is nasty, devious, deceitful and abusive any more…and Sam and his followers ENCOURAGE that fear, because it keeps them “devout”.

Unconsciously I think most of them feel that if they do not “prove” their ex has “NPD” they will no longer be perceived as the victim and may be, in some way, held responsible (rightly or wrongly).

I think just as often they are afraid that if they cannot convince themselves their partner has “NPD” they will have to face the fact that they wanted someone, and tried to have them, and lost.

I’d have a lot of sympathy with some of them, if they weren’t trying to overwhelm, demonise and drown out the reality of NPD and those really affected by it (whether in themselves, or at one remove through someone they love).

All Sam and his followers are really offering is validation through misdiagnosis and misinformation, while implying that there is no validation and support except through calling your problem NPD and interpreting your life in terms of NPD.

GD

#6

Back to Sam again! LOL

#7

Well nickinstant,

As Sam IS a the center of the “folie àplusieurs” around here there really isn’t a way to avoid mentioning him.

GD

(Edited cos I responded to the WRONG POSTER…now how in the WORLD did I mix 'em up?)

#8

A psychoanalyst that i spoke to told me that people visit him all the time who are victims of N partners, they dont know what has happened to them. But he does!

Maybe he is imaging NPD just like the rest of us according to you!

#9

Seriously, what was the point of taking something from my personal blog and posting it here? I rarely share anything of myself, I’d hate for it to get taken out of context. With all the amount of tension around here, thats all I see happening. Its not easy to share that part of myself, and I do it rarely. I had a message to pass on like it was passed on to me, the last thing I wanna see is a fight break out over my words. I just see people scanning over it and assuming I think they are all suffering from mass hysteria.

The “folie àplusieurs” of the article is a bitter rant directed at my exs friends who were decieved by the disordered girl. I’d much rather the people here identify with the term and recognize they might have been in similar situations where those around them took sides with someone who constructed elaborate lies about them. Thats more constructive to me than using the term against anybody. I’m more interested in conversations used for joining minds and not seperation. The CBT aspects were also very useful to me during my experience and after and I hope more people learn about it and can take advantage of it, but I don’t think anybody is interested in hearing about it at the moment.

I also spent plenty of time demonizing my ex and swapping war stories, and you can still catch me throwing labels around. Its human nature to do so when placed in such a situation. It was a lot of work to remove myself from that mindset.

Anyways, I do appreciate the compliment. Thankyou. =)

#10

Oh but there is.

its easy!

I have never read his book, and I cant be bothered with his webpages, i dont like them.

Its not my place to judge him. That would be rude. Just as it would be to judge anyone here.

My husband of 15 years on the other hand, i feel qulified to asses and judge. He is NPDisordered, and for that fact i feel sorry for us both.

#11

CZBZ said:

Well, that may be true. I do feel like I’ve gone back for a second trip through Hell.
It’s been years since a forum activated my hyper-vigilence, suspicion and distrust. But I’m a-feelin’ it now!
I much prefer tolerance, kindness, compassion and WISDOM about the healing process. But hey, that’s just me.

Oh dear…I don’t know what to suggest?

Maybe if you stopped all the Machiavellian scheming, the control games, the duplicity and the spite in your participation all that would change for the better?

Just a suggestion now…you can carry on as you are if you like.

GD

#12

Wyouth,

I’m sorry your article was used without respect. .

I knew when I read it but didnt want to get involved in yet another battle.

I didnt tell you this before but when I had first read it it described a part of having a relationship with a disordered person I hadnt had to endure…trying to justify myself to a social group fooled by your partner.

I’m glad youre out of that relationship, and glad that you worked through the anger stage. Its such an important stage thats all too easy to try and talk/reprimand/guilt ourselves out of.

I know you werent the one to submit it to this group, but thanks for sharing it.

#13

Phoenix said:

I’m sorry your article was used without respect. .

Though, of course, nobody claimed the article was used “without respect” in the first place.

GD

#14

phoenix,

I am impressed at your attempts to manipulate and your insidious antagonizing. There are healthier ways of getting ones needs met.

The article was not used out of disrespect, but rather the opposite.

wastedyouth,

My apologies to you. Had I realized it was yours, I would have asked permission. It is exceptionally perceptive and well written which is why I shared it. I hope you share more but I can appreciate you may possibly have reservations on this board as those of differing perspectives are so sensitive and subject to attaching back.

Blitxen,

Could not have said it better myself.

Nick,

No one challenged what you lived with. No one challenged what your other’s problem is. The challenges have been broad spectrum directed at the label being attached to other’s experiences capriciously, a process that follows from that, and the efforts of censorship at those who refuse to sucker into that game, but have see things differently.

#15

"Wyouth, I'm sorry your article was used without respect. . I knew when I read it but didnt want to get involved in yet another battle." ~ Pheonix101

Thankyou, Pheonix.  I don't think there was any intended disrespect, and I'm quite honored that it was noticed.  I just don't think anybody is interested in listening to those ideas at the moment.  I'm sure good intentions where involved.   

Susiejo,

No apologies necessary, and thanks for the compliment.  no harm was done...  =) 

 

 

 

#16

WYouth,

 

I confess, I read this, thought it sounded upset, and I started to feel protective of you.  I didnt want to see you get trampled on here ilike so many others.

 

Seriously, what was the point of taking something from my personal blog and posting it here? I rarely share anything of myself, I'd hate for it to get taken out of context. With all the amount of tension around here, thats all I see happening. Its not easy to share that part of myself, and I do it rarely.

 

I'm relieved youre actually not upset.

#17

Ah now WY,

“Those ideas” you think nobody is interested in, happen to be some of the most profound meaningful insights I have seen in a LONG time. Not least in the way that they relate to the family dynamic I was raised in.

I was surprised people jumped on it that way and made it about what is happening here before anything else, but when they did, I couldn’t help thinking…

GD

#18

"you can carry on as you are if you like. "

I'll try my best!  

CZ

#19

""Those ideas" you think nobody is interested in, happen to be some of the most profound meaningful insights I have seen in a LONG time." 

Since the ideas were meaningful to you, Blitzen, I'll back up your perceptions and agree. But please remember that what is meaningful to Blitzen, is meaningful to Blitzen. And when someone writes or reads an emotionally evocative message that is meaningful to them, allow them the same respect you ask for yourself.

"I was surprised people jumped on it that way and made it about what is happening here before anything else, but when they did, I couldn't help thinking..." 

Maybe compassionate presentation is everything, Blitzen? Posting about CBT on a new thread is a useful thing to do. Posting information implying someone's process is irrational is not a good use of anyone's time (either for the posters or the readers).

I might also suggest great benefit to be gained by cutting through personal arrogance. Assuming we know everything there is to know about someone's process through reading quick replies, is short-sighted and judgmental. 

"The CBT aspects were also very useful to me during my experience and after and I hope more people learn about it and can take advantage of it, but I don't think anybody is interested in hearing about it at the moment. " ~WY

Everything in its rightful place and in its own time, WY. Once people admit to themselves that a relationship is not salvageable (because the other person is not similarly committed or capable), most of us move towards self-healing which often includes CBT. It's cheap, it's quick, and insurance pays for it.

It might be important to suggest to everyone that there are other pathways to healing than the intellect. Our bodies have an intelligence of their own though it's much more frightening to allow emotional processes to direct our journey than it is to map out a plan with our brains.

CZBZ

 

#20

CZBZ:

I believe you will find that the forum where it is appropriate for you to micromanage and dictate to other posters is here:

http://groups.msn.com/WebofNarcissism/

GD