In my research (unrelated to NPD) I came across this quote

Yes I know the difference between knowing and believing, thats precisely why I am asking.

And whats going on here? Theres no need to attack me, I havent made any criticism of you, I’m going in the direction of my curiousity and checking out what got tweaked for me.

The ONLY thing I can know with 100% certainty is myself, my motives, my choices, my fears, my flaws. That doesnt preclude me learning things about myself I didnt know before, it doesnt preclude me shifting my perspectives so that I CAN choose things I may have never chosen before.

But that doesnt invalidate what I DO know either.

And that seems to me to be precisely what MY human condition is today.

Hows yours today?

So, Phoenix said that she witnessed what seemed like slivers of clarity, or intimacy.

I can attest to that. Those moments are the ones that hook you and reel you in…like there is a heart in there, somewhere…it appears to want to be set free, yet…time typically proves otherwise. The heart may be there, and those small slivers of light piercing through may show themselves for but a moment. When you go with your flashlights and your rescue effort to free the prisoner inside, you’ll often, or dare I say maybe always, find instead…a grueling, growling, angry beast that disdains the fact he let you in. Such is the fear in which he lives.

What a dark life.

Give me Ryan Reynolds shackled to a bolt in the floor.

gypsy npd-cpt6590@lists.careplace.com wrote:

Wesley Snipes is only a man!:slight_smile:

Rene


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or the fear of being exposed to being treated the way the N will treat you.

Hi Newstart,

yes, that does seem to be the way it goes doesnt it?

In my experience too.

I saw remorse for instance, once. I heard words of regret a number of times, but I didnt see regret, ever until it was all over. But I saw what looked, sounded, felt and tasted like genuine regret, once, for all of maybe 2 minutes. And I'm thankful I got that from my ex even if it came far too late to be of any use (it had meaning for me, that I was worth him feeling some shame and guilt over being treated poorly), but it was followed almost immediately with being used and manipulated by him (the same ole same ole).

I cant tell you why that sliver was important. But it was. It has something to do with feeling...believing he isnt less than human, that his disorder keeps him from making humane, compassionate, contactful choices - but that it hasnt completely robbed him of his humanity.

Thats not to say I want him back in even the slightest way, fucking over my life again. But it does say something about my love I think, that some day, in some way, with someone, he might LET himself have a heart.

I feel that, because MY love is real, I suppose.

I dont know, I have to think about it.

And because my ex isnt here to talk about what the experience is like for him, I'm letting Sam stand in as a surrogate to talk about what its like for him.

We don’t KNOW anything about ourselves in any sense of the verb to KNOW. We
have access to some information, but this information is not KNOWLEDGE in
the strict epistemological sense.

This is an issue that has been much debated in philosophy. Will be glad to
refer you to literature. Not attacking you, don’t get paranoid.

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “thephoenix101” npd-cpt6590@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] in my unrelated research I came across this

Read this about emotional resonance tables:

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq33.html

Narcissists IMITATE emotions.

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “neednewstart” npd-cpt6590@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] in my unrelated research I came across this

Gypsy,

thats a profound statement to make, because if its true they see everyone as an opportunity to gain power over, or at least keep the “foe” from gaining power over THEM, then it makes perfect, and sad sense that they would keep themselves from being vulnerable by ever showing…or more scary, FEELING more than just a sliver.

And sometimes, in those moments in the middle of the night when everything seems a little off kilter and scary, I can say I’ve felt that too…genuine vulnerability, REAL risk taking, allowing someone to have the ability to hurt you, and the hope that they wont, and then having to endure and survive when they do…is often something I’ve wished I could have deadened and therefore protected myself from.

To this day, especially when faced with a loving, good man who really does have his entire act together, looking to me with hope that I might allow myself that kind of trust and vulnerability with him, when it was so abused by my expartner – is a little too much to ask of me, and I do often wonder if I might just not make life easy by deciding to never letting anyone else into my heart like that again.

It was great when it was great, but I really dont think it was worth the abuse and misery my life was sunk into for most of the years we were together. I cant see myself, at least at this point, thinking it might be a good idea to risk one more time.

wow. I’m feeling a lot of anger toward my ex again.

I have no doubt he’s invested his sweep-her-off-her-feet attention and energy into at least one other woman since we broke up a year ago, and done so with no hesitation or felt risk. And I’m still here, with someone who is exercising incredible patience and generousity hoping I’ll allow myself to take the plunge one more time, and I cant get excited about it.

Is it possible we get “ruined” by N’s, like a cancer that destroys a certain organ, muscle or bone, never to regenerate again?

fuckers!

Phoenix:

The ONLY thing I can know with 100% certainty is myself, my motives, my
choices, my fears, my flaws.

Sam:

No way. We know very little about ourselves, our motives, our fears, let
alone our flaws. Hence the need for good friends and good therapists: they
help us get better acquainted with ourselves. Though psychoanalysis is
largely discredited, the percepts of “repressed content” and "unconscious"
are still very much alive. UNconscious means that we are NOT conscious of
the BULK of our psyche. What we are aware of is the tip of a submerged
iceberg.

The concept of “defense mechanisms” is also based on the observation that we
know very little about ourselves:

http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders21.html

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Vaknin author of “Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited”"
palma@unet.com.mk
To: “thephoenix101” npd-cpt6590@lists.careplace.com
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] in my unrelated research I came across this

We don’t KNOW anything about ourselves in any sense of the verb to KNOW. We
have access to some information, but this information is not KNOWLEDGE in
the strict epistemological sense.

This is an issue that has been much debated in philosophy. Will be glad to
refer you to literature. Not attacking you, don’t get paranoid.

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “thephoenix101” npd-cpt6590@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] in my unrelated research I came across this

SAM!!!

(chuckling)

I’m not paranoid. I just have some experience with how you react to people you think are criticizing you, and I started to see that reaction rear its head in your responses to me.

I’m not going to visit any links, you know me, link-weary. I’ve taken 4 philosophy courses in university (although granted that was 20+ years ago - but I did get high enough marks the head of the dept invited me to switch majors). So I understand what youre saying, however, my experience of myself is something that in time and space of my observing my actions, feeling my emotions and physical sensations, being clear on my motives and my past history and patterns of behaviour, and witnessing the fall out of those choices…and lets face it, being witness to myself more than anyone on this planet ever has…ME, I know myself at any given moment…I just do.

And I suspect that you would like us to believe you about you knowing yourself too.

or am I incorrect in that?

No! Please! No more links!

samvaknin npd-cpt6590@lists.careplace.com wrote:

This is an issue that has been much debated in philosophy. Will be glad to refer you to literature.

Rene


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Here I describe how I felt when my ex-wife was having an affair and, later,
abandoned me:

http://gorgelink.org/vaknin/harmony-en.html

http://gorgelink.org/vaknin/lastdays-en.html

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “thephoenix101” npd-cpt6590@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] in my unrelated research I came across this

Hmmmmm…

Now, how would I refer Phoenix to literature without using links? Tried
telepathy, didn’t work …;o((

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “mercenary” npd-cpt6590@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] in my unrelated research I came across this

Ah well Ok Sam, THAT I can address. The underpinning of my therapist training at this particular institute is the philsoophy that one cannot help a client clean up their shit, if the therapist hasnt herself cleaned up her own shit. SO that requires 3 years of intensive group work in which not only are the leaders/trainers clarifying and calling a trainee on their shit, bu so are all the other trainees…PLUS, as I’ve mentioned before one must meet the criteria of a certain number of hours of individual therapy with past graduates.

And one cannot pass from one year to the next without having first demonstrated in a 5 day intensive retreat/exam, both day and night in serious and playful activities, scheduled and casual/informal interactions with ones fellow trainees and upper/lower year colleagues, that they are coming or have come to recognize their shit, have the flexibility to be fluid in their choices in how to react and use it, and can forge and maintain relationships of integrity and contact.

It is NOT merely a training programme in which you do the research, attend the lectures and write the papers.

I suspect my confidence in my self and my knowing the light and the shadow of my actions and choices are based on that training,

but also being raised by parents to be assertive, self-assured and open minded all at the same time.

I think thats another thing you and I may have in common.

I’m pretty clear on what my flaws are…really…and I’m pretty aware of the feelings/sensations in my body that would make fluidity an easy or near impossible task.

Hmmmm… Phoenix,

Is there a topic you HAVEN’T studied (and graduated with excellence)?

NEWS FLASH

4 philosophy courses does not amount to actually studying - let along
knowing - even general philosophy, let alone highly specialized areas like
epistemology.

(laughing)

The Narcissist as Know-it-all

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4945

----- Original Message -----
From: “thephoenix101” npd-cpt6590@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] in my unrelated research I came across this

telepathy!

(laughing)

I like it! just try harder, it should work :slight_smile:

I’ve been told more than once that I’m psychic. Fine tune your frequency :slight_smile:

re my education:

Sam,

I am clear on that. It does give me more background than a handful of online links would give me.

And yes, as a matter of fact, there is a LOT I havent studied.

What I have studied, just in case you wanted to find a way to argue with me in which I cant defend my own knowing about myself…

ART (history and studio)
Philosophy
German and Russian Lit
a smidgen of American/English Lit
and my therapist training

I also read, a LOT, but I retain knowledge in a visual thinking mode, not with hard cold facts. So how I integrate what I learn is sense and experience driven, not intellectually so…hence the way I write, and my talent in working with at-risk teens…theyre sense/experience driven too.

Also, for a painter with a camera, I’m not too bad at that, although I’m always humbled by photographers whose work sparkles.

oh, and I studied and taught navigation to boaters, because I was an avid sailor, so I have some authority in that.

Shall we talk “storms”?

:slight_smile:

I’m not trying to discredit you Sam, I’m merely have a dialogue with you based on my curiousity and interest.

Do you want to participate or no? Either way, I’m good.

I guess what I am saying is

I dont know everything there is to know about myself

but I know a helluva lot more about me than you, or my ex or my own mother knows about me

and what I DO know, I know 100%.

What I dont yet know about myself may be revealed, and it may, like my ex relationship, be a painful reveal, or if I’m lucky it will be a pleasurable fun one.

Either way I’m not unteachable, on the contrary, my mind’s open.

Unfortunately, however, you wont be able to argue me out of what I DO know. And I’m not trying to argue you out of yours, I’m just thinking out loud and asking questions.

phoenix you were so baited and you fell for it rofl

thephoenix101 npd-cpt6590@lists.careplace.com wrote:

re my education:

What I have studied, just in case you wanted to find a way to argue with me in which I cant defend my own knowing about myself…

ART (history and studio)
Philosophy
German and Russian Lit
a smidgen of American/English Lit
and my therapist training

I also read, a LOT, but I retain knowledge in a visual thinking mode, not with hard cold facts. So how I integrate what I learn is sense and experience driven, not intellectually so…hence the way I write, and my talent in working with at-risk teens…theyre sense/experience driven too.

Also, for a painter withy a camera, I’m not too bad at that, although I’m always humbled by photographers whose work sparkles.

oh, and I studied and taught navigation tob oaters, because I was an avid sailor, so I have some authority in that.

Shall we talk “storms”?

Rene


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Mercenary,

I have very little fear, and for good reason.

what more can I say?