"CzBz, You use many defense mechanisms to avoid being honest. Why does honesty scare you?"
It doesn't. Not in the least. But I'm having a pretty hard time being heard or believed.
*sigh*
CZBZ
CZBZ said
You know Blitzen, I’ve extended my hand in friendship. I’ve tried to email you privately and work things out.
To which my answer is that in the unlikely event I ever get nuts enough to want to be friends with a predatory and manipulative…er…person…at all, I might as well be friends with a gorgeous one I could sh*g the hide off…and I can think of three within a 30 mile radius that I won’t even give the time of day to…or my mother…who would probably leave me stuff in her will…green, folding stuff…and I won’t do tHAT either…
Ooooo look…
AND, you were incorrect about your perceptions too, I might add.
That MAY be inconsistency number three?
:o)
GD
PS You didn’t say WHY validating Sam’s exploitative nonsense is so important to you yet, OR make an excuse for not saying it?
Funny thing about truth CZBZ…
There is only one version of it…which means that you can’t be honest without sticking consistently to the same story…
And you never do.
GD
Blitzen,
Since we don't know each other, how about you tell me all the many ways I've twisted and turned the truth? You don't even know me....or my story. Rather than making accusations, give me a list.
And I'm still waiting for that list helping everyone understand how Vaknin's writings disagree with psychological theory about the NPD.
CZ
I’ll point out your inconsistencies as we go in future (and as I pointed out several in the past).
I believe I answered your question about Sam’s nonsense, perhaps, in a way, several times…
So there we have inconsistency number one.
:o)
Incidentally, WHY IS validating Sam’s exploitative nonsense so important to you?
(Edited to add, as I realise it) Isn’t THAT, in itself, considering the extent to which you initially presented yourself as an opponent of Sam, inconsistency number two?
GD
Unfortunately Angiezee there IS however, only one definition of Narcissistic personality disorder, which can be found in the in the DSM IV TR and it is improper and misleading to go around misusing that term for totally different things ranging from from any perpetrator of complex psychological and emotional abuse to any victim who fights back, and all shades of grey in between.
GD
"I'll point out your inconsistencies as we go in future (and as I pointed out several in the past). "
AND, you were incorrect about your perceptions too, I might add.
You know Blitzen, I've extended my hand in friendship. I've tried to email you privately and work things out. I've listened to your points of view. But now...I'm done.
There is no sense to be found in nonsense.
CZ
I just spent a really lovely evening talking about shifts…repositioning maybe is another term for it.
Thats the kind of stuff I love. I think I mentioned before, theres such beauty in the stories my mother tells of the hardships and triumphs of her life.
My dad died 10 years ago, and my grande dame of a mom swore she didnt need another man to pick up after 
My mother got a marriage proposal recently…at 73. How fabulous is that? And the wonderful 83 year old gentleman hasnt done anything more romantic than kiss her all these months he’s been courting her.
I doubt she’ll marry him, but I think my joy and enthusiasm of her experience is probably only surpassed by her own. None of us thought love would find her again since my dad’s passing, only because she didnt seem to want to invite it in.
I suppose what I am saying is, life can soemtimes be filled with some pretty awful years to have to endure…bad marriages, abusive relationships, disease, war…and death.
My gentleman friend and I talked about what I’d just come out of, and how he’d wished I could say I’d turned the corner on my recovery from grief/anger/feeling like a survivor - to being just me. Something I’d been wishing for for awhile, even out loud here yesterday.
I’m a little timid to say it right now, but I feel a shift.
The label NPD or whats probably more accurate for my ex ASPD doesnt matter to me. I’ve said it already many times. And its starting to not matter what bad things he did. Its not even mattering very much to me tonight why I stayed, what mistakes I made, how I let myself down.
The only thing that seems to matter is how beautiful the slick shiny night streets were as we drove home, the distant sweet scent of cologne, that I laughed all evening, the great shiraz I had, that I drew a beautiful mermaid he took home with him.
I’ve done my share of moaning in my grief and frustration about my history with my exN, and I’m gartreful for the space to be able to do that amongst everyone.
I wanted to share that at least for now…man…the world seems like a lovely place again.
Thanks everyone who has been supportive (especially a couple of you - you know who you are).
This is the best place to add my favorite quote:
“Expect to have hope rekindled. Expect your prayers to be answered in wonderous ways. The dry seasons of life do not last. The spring rains will come again.”-Sara BanBreathnach
Only a qualified professional can diagnose NPD…indeed.
I’ll reiterate a point I remember saying much earlier, when I joined this forum. If having a term makes it easier to make sense of your experience, then use the term. If having a book to read from which you find yourself saying “yes, yes, yes” to helps make sense, use it. If it helps you to replace the term NPD with “abuse” so that it can make sense, then get your whiteout and pen ready to go.
Speak the term, speak French, draw symbols, run movies through your head (like I do all the time) but dont take my word for it, or Sam’s or his nay sayers or anyone else without at the very least listening to your own gut, your own heart.
If youre always in pain, if youre giving but not getting, if theres no respect or consistency for you, if feeling confused and crazy has become the norm, if stress and anxiety are becoming your middle names, I for one dont care if you side with me on this forum or someone else.
Just do and think and be what you need to to return to normal, to satisfaction, to thriving…not merely surviving.
Life is so short…its SO short.
Find your beauty to give and to receive, alone or with your children or with a new lover.
there is not much dignity in the kind of self-sacrifice we had in our miserable relationships and the way we were doing them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
In the end its all we really have.
That is SO hot.
thephoenix101 npd-cpt6680@lists.careplace.com wrote: My mother got a marriage proposal recently…at 73.
Rene
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I’m SO tired of y’all’s bickering
Rene
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I find it so incredibly amazing that the posts is which someone asks for an answer or help, don’t get answered. The posts that have an opportunity for someone to blast their own agenda down someone else’s throat do.
It seems so “my way or the highway” and it’s so juvenile. Did your mother teach you that the world is fair and that everyone HAS to agree with you? Has it ever occured to you that we can all agree to disagree? That there IS no one truth? That there may be no “reality”, only “perception”? And, everyone’s perception is different - AND, as valid as the next?
So Angie, are you not promoting your way or the highway? Would you say that your N was not lying, but rather only relaying his perception which was as valid as your own?
Angie,
YES, precisely.
When we’re talking about our relationships, our broken dreams, our cancelled plans for ourselves and our children OF COURSE there is more than one reality. Thats why I am here, despite the gun battles, because the other boards I was on, had only ONE way to look at it, every ex was NPD “or you wouldnt be here” and the ONLY way to deal with it is “absolute no contact”.
And youre no qualified professional to be diagnosing your partner, but you DO KNOW them better than any armchair psych researcher does.
I’m sorry you feel genuine questions have been asked and left unanswered. Thank you for bringing our attention to that. I’m going to go back and see what those might be and try and say something.
Its very difficult to “hear the waves” when theres so much “seal clubbing” going on isnt it?
CZ:
And I’m still waiting for that list helping everyone understand how Vaknin’s
writings disagree with psychological theory about the NPD.
Sam:
No such list can be forthcoming, for a simple reason:
I wish I could say that I have invented or discovered anything, that I have
been original. I merely summarized and synthesized years of reading and
learning into a book. It is fully compatible with all current knowledge
because it is a SUMMARY of state of the art scholarly studies and textbooks.
I did, however, invent some terms that have actually entered the mainstream
scholarly papers (such as “cerebral” and “somatic” narcissists and many
other words and phrases).
No you didn’t Sam,
You said (and say) whatever it amused you to say, then mis attributed it to recognized sources, often distorted and out of context, banking on the fact that nobody would read your cumbersome prose closely enough, let alone check sufficiently to find you out.
You were partly right, look how long it took me to get round to it.
Apart from which, Why have you consistently spent 9 years publicly misrepresenting people you know to be, predatory, unscrupulous and manifest all the attributes that YOU call “Malignant Narcissism” as providing valid sources of support and healing?
GD
Sam, What I found on your mentalhelp link does not support what you are saying.
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=440&cn=8
" Research has not narrowed down the cause to any factor at this time. We do know, however, that these disorders will most often manifest themselves during increased times of stress and interpersonal difficulties in one’s life. Therefore, treatment most often focuses on increasing one’s coping mechanisms and interpersonal skills."
I think you also wrote the following:
http://personalitydisorders.suite101.com/article.cfm/brain_and_personality
Certain medical conditions can activate the narcissistic defense mechanism. Chronic ailments are likely to lead to the emergence of narcissistic traits or a narcissistic personality style. Traumas (such as brain injuries) have been known to induce states of mind akin to full-blown personality disorders.
In the spirit of going back and answering questions posed in this thread:
CZ said:
Blah Blah
I know...kinda juvenile of me, wasn't it?
Maybe, but theres something to be said for choosing to be silly and playful and childlike once in awhile. I bet if we were neighbours as kids, you'd have been a great person to walk through The Haunted House with!
CZ wrote: how about you tell me all the many ways I've twisted and turned the truth?
Well, lets change that to how "we turned the truth" first. I know a few shaman, not that well, but whenever they talked about things, I listened carefully. I remember hearing about the medicine wheel of truth (geez I hope I get this right, it was along time ago). Imagine a wheel with 18 sections in it. Start filling each section with what you wonder/suspect about your relatioNship lets say. He's aN. What else might he be CZ? an incredibly selfish guy, thats section 2. What else? maybe he's protecting himself because he is scared. thats section 3. what else might he be? acting out his unresolved childhood issues. thats section 4...and it goes on. Dont forget to fill some sections about you. I was a good person who was victimized. I was malignantly hopeful. I chose love over respect is another section. I didnt want to be a quitter is another. I liked being the martyr is another. I had some co-dependency streaks is another. Leave a few of those sections empty, because there has to be room for what he would say about himself in the relatioNship (she was a nag, I dont like being controlled, whatever).
Stand back and look at the wheel now...and thats the closest thing to the truth you will get.
Its not twisting the truth to hold onto just one explanation...its merely incomplete. Its a beautiful philosophy isnt it? Inclusive, sophisticated, like a tapestry is, like a human is.
Angie said: Has it ever occured to you that we can all agree to disagree? That there IS no one truth? That there may be no "reality", only "perception"? And, everyone's perception is different - AND, as valid as the next?
Yes, and as long as someone's death doesnt hang in the balance, I'm hoping we can afford the luxury of making room for all the perceptions. Even the ones we dont really want to hear can be added to that tapestry.
CZBZ
a Narcissistic Streak refusing submission.
WTF???
Is that a new DIY diagnosis or BDSM jargon?
our purpose is to Open Doors to understanding and healing.
I think you will find that manipulating and misinforming people does not generally have that effect.
Internet support groups are totally unregulated and unaccountable in any real sense, they are wide open to any abuse anyone cares to make of them.
People who are in situations of psychological and emotional abuse need reality…
Real safety…
Real people…
Real information…
Real support…
But more than that, they need to learn how to best assure themselves of those things in their lives…and how to tell the difference between reality and deception.
…and they certainly will never be able to do that in internet groups that are unregulated, unaccountable and can be under the sole control of any low flying psychopath who gets a kick out of having the power to play with other people’s lives.
GD