Only a qulified professional can diagnose NPD

Narcissistic personality disorder
#61

CZ and Phoenix,

We all know that not every person that comes to forums has had an N partner. Lots of people, in their rationalizing the relationship find that giving their ex partner an initial takes all of the blame off of them, individually.

We all know that there are just as many mentally unhealthy people representing themselves as victims as there are mentally healthy people who represent themselves as victims. There have been so really crazy unhealthy people I have seen on forums, who feel better about their situation if their ex is an N.

They find someone to blame. They are then good guys and their ex is the bad guy. I know that , we all know that.

But there is a fair percentage of people that come onto the forums because they have genuinely been in an abusive relationship and they don’t know what happened and they want to know what possibly could have caused this. They learn what, why, and when they go through the grieving process and they move on to a better life, hopefully with no abuser in it. And that’s why we stay and help. Its like we are the “door holders” for the people hopefully moving on.

It still doesn’t matter whether we call them N, P , or J. What matters is they are an abuser and these victims need to become survivors and move on.

I think we are all saying the same things, just in like terms, yet arguing that the other is wrong. Because the “i” is not dotted, everyone is up in arms.

Abusers are abusers, no matter what their label.

wahela

#62

Phoenix said:

I know a few shaman, not that well, but whenever they talked about things, I listened carefully. I remember hearing about the medicine wheel of truth (geez I hope I get this right, it was along time ago).

WHICH school of therapy, exactly, did you qualify in before being let loose on disturbed teenagers?

GD

#63

Wahela said: We all know that not every person that comes to forums has had an N partner. Lots of people, in their rationalizing the relationship find that giving their ex partner an initial takes all of the blame off of them, individually.

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I'm leaving room for the possibility I might come to see I'm one of those people. The reason I say this is because, even in the face of my therapist telling me my ex is a N, I'm still struggling not only to "see" my part of the mess, but in really feeling it settled in owning it. So those lies we tell ourselves as a defense, and our therapists challenging them, and it either fits A-HA, or it doesnt , or theres something in between....in regards to my own part, I often feel stuck in the inbetween. But I have faith thats part of the process of getting from there to here.

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I know what I know. And what I dont yet know, I'm wide open to possibilities.

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Did that make sense? (chuckling) I'm dealing with a morning after Shiraz night. Let me know if I need to clarify that.

#64

"But there is a fair percentage of people that come onto the forums because they have genuinely been in an abusive relationship and they don't know what happened and they want to know what possibly could have caused this. They learn what, why, and when they go through the grieving process and they move on to a better life, hopefully with no abuser in it. And that's why we stay and help. Its like we are the "door holders" for the people hopefully moving on." ~Wahela

How many people are actually dealing with someone who has a NPD? We can't know the answer to that since few are fortunate enough to have an official diagnosis. What we can know, through their courage to self-disclose, is that forum members are dealing with people who have a Narcissistic Streak refusing submission.

Most Internet forums are not based on clinical accuracy since our purpose is to Open Doors to understanding and healing. To stop the abuse through education and validation whether this means ending a relationship, or managing a narcissistic relationship without exacerbating dysfunction. To allow each person the dignity to decide for him or herself, how their life can best be managed.

Perhaps the most important gift we offer others is Caring: Reaffirming faith in a benevolent world that is meaningful. When a stranger offers a hand-up, people believe in their self-worth again.

Learning about the NPD/DNP/Narcissistic Style answered questions I felt hopeless to even ask. Forums helped me overcome a tragic sense of despair, restoring faith in my ability to help myself.  

I hope to pay it forward.

CZBZ

 

#65

CZBZ, of course, people need support, caring and a hand up. Then when they get started moving through the grief stages, they need to take a look at their situation, and figure out how and why that happened so they don’t do it again, looking at their childhood issues, self esteem issues, etc.

The problems seem to be in the labelling of an abuser, and diagnosis versus inaccuracies in diagnosis.

I have said all along that it doesn’t matter what initial one gives to an abuser, the important thing is that one figures it out–that person is an abuser.

None of the forums we have been discussing have ever said that a certainperson is an abuser (or an N, if you want to use the term). We all (and even the sock puppets forum) state that we are not professionals and we cannot diagnose anyone, much less someone who knows someone who is on the forum looking for information.

Czbz, so far there has been a lot of crap tossed back and forth, but nobody knows what to do with it, except insult and argue. There are NO concrete plans on how to make things better. The paranoia around here is massive. CZ and Phoenix, what do you think could improve how we deal with undiagnosed personality disorders? Change the names of the forums to “women who have been abused and damaged by ‘weird guys that are control freaks, azzholes and alcoholics?’”

#66

One of the main problems is that the cult of onlineNPD consists of people define DIY Diagnosing someone they consider to be an abuser, with a distorted version of a disorder that they probably haven’t got, and then proceeding to demonise, not only them, but everyone who really has the disorder they probably haven’t got anyway.

Another of the main problems is that cult of onlineNPD does not see that victims of abuse have the slightest need to learn to distinguish between real support and information and further revictimisation by online abusers.

GD

#67

My father (My N) was a victim of abuse from his father who had PTSD
from WWII. It is a CLINICAL fact that children of these men have a
chance of acquiring the disorder as a child. My father was
definitely one of them. He has passed down PTSD to me and he passed
NPD to my brother.
On Nov 10, 2007, at 1:12 PM, blitzen wrote:

#68

Pathological narcissism is a reaction to prolonged abuse and trauma in early
childhood or early adolescence. The source of the abuse or trauma is
immaterial - the perpetrators could be parents, teachers, other adults, or
peers. Pampering, smothering, spoiling, and “engulfing” the child are also
forms of abuse - see these:

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/narcissismglance.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal42.html

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php/type/doc/id/419

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “bup” npd-cpt6680@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] only a qulified professional can diagnose NPD

#69

By jove, I think she’s got it!

The cue words here is “suffered”. Someone who has suffered at the hands of the above mentioned type of people.

I know some dear and loved weird people. I myself have been accused of being eccentric (not the same terms as used here, ahem). And that’s allright. I don’t mind.

I’m part Native American. I also don’t mind “the tomahawk chop.” I think its great that people display these kinds of emotions, lifestyles, etc. I think that being very liberal and allowing everyone to be what they want to be is great. There should be more of that.

However, weird would work for me. ;^)

wahela

#70

Sam

of the three links you just listed, is the last one an independent source?

I’d like to read about that.

#71

 I have to admit when I came here,I was not thinking clearly at all. I thought this was a group and board for and about" narcissistic personality disorder" where you could share your stories and feelings, where I could find support and validation that I did indeed live through "something". I saw boards for verbal and emotional abuse but I felt there was just a little more to the craziness.

WAHELA

 I think your onto something, I would have jumed on that board, that is more discriptive,

Why don't we form our own................

                     "Cover our azzes" group site

If you have suffered at the hands of a weird, azzhole, alcoholic, verbal, emotional, physical and financial, double talking abuser, this is the place for you.

I would have signed onto that one, no confusion there, it covers it all.

I realize that some might not like the word "weird" or" azzhole" because there are nice weird people and even Azzholes can be nice people, I MEAN THE ONES WHO ARE STUCK IN THOSES STAGES, but we can take our chances and if too many protest, we can eliminate those two names.

What do you think should we start our own group here on "care place"?

 THIS IS ONLY IN THE PLANNING STAGES, SPEAK UP NOW IF YOU OBJECT TO THE DESCRIPTIONS OF THE ABUSER, WE WANT TO BE SENSITIVE AND NOT HURT ANYONE!!!!!!!

                    HUGS MAMOLIE

#72

lol, i cant even keep up! who cares? sam sam sam, are you in love with the guy or what?

#73

Hi Mamolie

I dont know about you guys, but I’m staying right here.

The term NPD got me to Sam’s book, Sam’s book helped me even though I dont have any use for it anymore, and in fact dont have any use for the label NPD anymore. But if it got me here, its getting other people here, and the stories other people, like you have to tell ring familiar to me, and I want to be in a place where what I am hearing is what fits, and where people who went through what I went through and have recovered further than me, offer me hope merely by example, and where if I can repay the hope I get to keep going, I can somehow offer to others just arriving that they keep going too.

I hope the name of the forum stays the same, I hope everyone who came here but has been lurking since the seal clubber arrived will begin to post “around” her and we can find some cameraderie when we say “yes, it was that way for me too, thank you”.

#74

Mamolie:

Why don’t we form our own…
“Cover our azzes” group site

I think that is the best idea anybody has had so far…

And while you are at it you should describe an abuser any way he honestly is…

The problem is when you start DIY diagnosing and calling them, incorrectly “Narcissists” instead of abusers, and thus associating everybody actually diagnosed with NPD by real professional with the abuse.

Still I think the term “azz-abuse” might be open to misinterpretation and may need modification?

Susiejo:

Sam, What I found on your mentalhelp link does not support what you are saying.

Yes he often does that…

Though I do agree, in principle that personality disorders probably are most often caused by trauma and/or abuse I feel confident that Sam what Sam has is actually congenital psychopathy…

THOUGH…if you got through his interminable “works” sooner or later you will find suggestions of early, serious head injury…

But whether that is a real possibility or just another way Sam feels compelled to try and transfer responsibility for his reprehensible behavior onto someone else, ideally his mother is VERY hard to say…

He does show a lot of indicators of Body Dysmorphic Disorder too which is very much suggested as a potential neuro disorder (though at this time it still mystifies science).

GD

#75

phoneix,

just injecting a little humor for how rediculous this all is, sorry if you thought I was serious. The only time NPD came up was when the new people would come on and start the process of sorting it all out, then it becomes more about you and your healing and moving on, NPD never got this much attention before Blitzen and susiejo, btdt100. Before you even begin to describe your feelings or what you went through,it is immediately felt and understood by those of us that have lived it. When you have trouble trying to describe it, others who are further ahead in their healing can help you find those words or read something, some else said and the light bulb goes off, that's me, thats how I feel.It is about validating your experience and giving support. I am sticking it out also. Hugs mamolie

#76

Mamolie!!!

you caught me ina blonde moment! shame on you!

thank gawd I coliur over with red now, maybe nobody will notice :slight_smile:

#77

I agree. The label is absolutely besides the point. Abusers be abusers,
whether they are NPD, AsPD, or any other PD. Many of them do not have
personality disorders at all.

I have spent the last 6 years writing 8 books about ABUSE, abusers, and
victims. NPD is barely mentioned in any of these books. “Malignant Self
Love” was first published in 1999 (it is now in its eighth, revised
printing).

Learn more about my other books here:

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/thebook.html

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “thephoenix101” npd-cpt6680@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] only a qulified professional can diagnose NPD

#78

Well Sam, all I can say is:

“ain’t it a DANGED shame you made a typo and called it “Narcissism” not “abuse” EVERY SINGLE TIME?”

:o)

Are you the eejit who is passing around a daft rumor that I am INVICTA btw?

Apart from which, why have you consistently spent 9 years publicly misrepresenting people you know to be, predatory, unscrupulous and manifest all the attributes that YOU call “Malignant Narcissism” as providing valid sources of support and healing?

GD

#79

mamolie/Pheonix, i am with you both.

I am less offended by sam wen he gets nasty than i am by blitzen and susiejo and that goes for when they are being nice.

i say that not because i would take a pop at anyone normally, or because i am interested in argy bargy, but because I have seen them insinuate stupidity, question peoples work lives and qualification and more, and that I consider to be below the belt. Sam kinda had a go at me about that stuff, but then i criticised his website presentaion skills - tit for tat - i knew he would and he did, i worked out his boundaries and wont be going there again thanks. I was playing with him and he loved it!

But they have a point to make, and make it they do, over and over and over again. And i am like WHATEVER!!! I start reading threads and they so often end up at the same place…

now, for posting, i expect some retaliation from one other or both of them. tit for tat, and am not goin to bother responding to that. now, what does that remind me of??? Lol. bring it on. Twats!

#80

“NPD never got this much attention before Blitzen and susiejo, btdt100. “

I would disagree. What was going on was calling every person’s significant other an N, NPD, vampire, evil, etc. with little discussion of their experiences, next to no discussion of the disorder at all other than Sam’s oratories, no limits to who properly deserved this label, whether it was appropriate or not. And the rally was on to warn the world of Narcissist’s evil so they could be properly stoned, and Sam glorified

“Before you even begin to describe your feelings or what you went through,it is immediately felt and understood by those of us that have lived it. “

There is a fine line here with projection - one reason it is better to have well trained therapists. Identification of feelings does not mean both have or have not experienced NPD. As Blitxen has pointed out, abusers are not necessarily narcissists and narcissists are not necessarily abusers. All who have experienced it can identify with the feelings but it is misleading to call it NPD and then add in a host of other aspects. And that has been going on for long time on the board. Pathological lying can go with narcissism but not necessarily. It is more often associated with antisocial personality disorder, but there are others as well including physical health issues. Everyone can identify who has experienced it, but again, too quick to gross assumption that everyone who is experiencing the lying is experiencing NPD.

“When you have trouble trying to describe it, others who are further ahead in their healing can help you find those words or read something, some else said and the light bulb goes off, that’s me, thats how I feel.”

The issue is not about validating feelings. The issues have been about the misuse and abuse of NPD in that process, and the exploitation by Sam and others who have ulterior motives in misguiding – i.e. selling books, saving people, controlling, etc.

And there was a heck of a lot of analysis as to why those “Ns” do what they do such as obtaining “narcissistic supply”. What is this based on? Sam Varkin and that’s it.