This is ridiculous!

Narcissistic personality disorder
#41

Take the capital “N” out of it Gypsy and I think you have said something really important there…

Something worth taking on board…

The trick, even the wirewalk, is perhaps then to figure out how to retain your healthy Narcissism (that is what healthy self regard is actually called) under threat without crossing the line into pathological Narcissism - which is pretty much the formal term for “holding your ego in your heart” I think…though in ways your term explains it better to my mind.

Let me let you in on a shameful little secret…

“Narcissistic Abuse” as a term for complex psychological and emotional abuse was actually MY brainchild…in early 2000…

In my innocence (an I am rather afraid, arrogance, not to mention laziness), at that time, when I knew no better, I thought that if Sam and his nasty friends were given something worthwhile, that he actually UNDERSTOOD, to ram down the world’s throats he would give up the toxic little NPDworld he was building and get famous doing something useful instead.

It needed doing, and I hadn’t got the energy for it myself…

I ran it past Sam. I thought I was being REALLY clever (laughter is permitted, nay, ENCOURAGED on this :o) ).

On one hand I had Sam, desperate to be famous, powerful and influential and on the other I had something REALLY worthwhile he could use to get famous.

I thought I was a freakin’ GENIUS when that lightbulb went off in my head…

Yeah right…I hadn’t reckoned with a fact that I had known for years, which is that compulsive predators would rather die by fire than actually do anything genuinely useful or worthwhile…

So he didn’t do a thing about it until a year or so later when he has worked out a way to abuse the concept to to make his existing NPDworld bigger, stronger and more toxic than ever…

Let me show you the original article with which I announced it and tried to run with it a little myself. I had to find a substitute for “Narcissistic Abuse” at the last minute and someone suggested “Borgian Abuse” so I went with that…:

You never heard that term before because I just created it.
The root of the term is the family name “Borgia” a family who practised Borgian Abuse in every aspect of their lives centuries ago. It also has some interesting, more modern vernacular connotations in “The Borg”, also appropriate.
I’m hoping you are going to hear it a lot more, not just from me, but from as many other people as possible.
I want “Borgian Abuse” to become as much a part of our language as “Domestic Violence” or “Mental Cruelty”.
I want it to be shouted as an accusation in congress.
I want to see children protected from it.
I want to see employees sue for compensation because of it…
I want to see spouses get barring orders to escape it.
I even want to see people serve hard time for it.
Ambitious?
Maybe, but for the right reasons. I want to see it recognised, condemned, controlled by law, I want it to stop hurting people.
So what is “Borgian Abuse”?
Emotional abuse, mental cruelty, systematic abusive manipulation, pathological control, pathological deceit, those are all part of it.
Borgian Abuse can occur in a relationship, in a family, in a work setting, in a religious cult.
Borgian Abuse can, and does, occur in any setting. It can affect one person, or an entire community.
But it always causes damage, often serious damage, sometimes very permanent damage, even death.
As things stand, it is EXTREMELY difficult to prove at all, let alone control.
It is not easy to recover from either.

I still believe passionately in the words above…I have also come to realise it would have been better if I had crashed my car and died the day before I ever had the bright idea of handing the whole concept to a monster like Sam Vaknin to abuse.

Rejecting Sam Vaknin’s abuse of the concept and all the totally invalid links to NPD, doesn’t mean rejecting the concept itself…

Same way that rejecting Jim Jones and his suicidal cult didn’t mean rejecting opposition to the Klan, which is how Jim Jones got his following…

I was never very happy with the term “Borgian Abuse” though…it’s great in writing but uncomfortable to say…

I like the way you put things Gypsy…

Would you care to think of a better term?

GD

#42

Sam,

You do this because creating a toxic little personality cult you can use as your own, frequently remarkably sadistic and destructive, game of 5 dimensional chess actually means a great deal more to you than money…as does an illusion of influence.

Not that you cannot trade on the publicity you have generated for yourself to obtain money indirectly, much as you probably got credit facilities in Prague on the strength of convincing people that your “great work” was about to be published by “Narcissisus Publications” (without actually mention that you ARE “Narcissisus Publications”, of course).

…and besides, the book is so brutally written, very few people would ever read it if they had to pay for it.

But we have discussed this MANY times…

Why have you consistently spent 9 years publicly misrepresenting people you know to be, predatory, unscrupulous and manifest all the attributes that YOU call “Malignant Narcissism” as providing valid sources of support and healing?

GD

#43

The Narcissist as Eternal Child

http://samvak.tripod.com/narcissistinfantile.html

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “gypsy” npd-cpt6694@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: [npd] this is ridiculous!

#44

Blitzen, to me it really does not matter what we call it. The important thing is that we somehow get it out there, to be known to the rest of our suffering souls! We can call it Caligula syndrome, for all I care, thats what I called it before I read about it.
What I really care about is trying to help to get to the next step, after finding out what exactly is going on.
Of course there must be venting, I sure did my fair share of it! The shock reading or learning about something, most of us knew in our hearts already, but it somehow did not click,…then the realization and of course like me, feeling so stupid, putting up with it for so long! And then of course, the glorious idea of showing him, exposing him, yeah right,…ha! Great did I ever get bull dozed trying this one. Thou, I must say, staying with my X for another year, just to make sure to study and practice, so I never fall for this kind again, I acquired quite a nag on how to handle them. Or more so, make them stay away from me!
The next step, was to stop wasting my thoughts and energy on them, there is a life to live outside that. Structuring a new life, after that many years of abuse I think is the hardest part. To fully forgive myself for all those years waisted, the terrors my child had to put up with, finding the courage to respect myself, loosing the bitterness in my heart,…this is when I learned about thought control, without it, I really doubt that I could have recovered as quick as I did, I am still in the works, but I managed to make a 180 turn and I am having a great life now. But I will not forget about my fellow sufferers and hope I can help, having only my experience to offer.

#45

Susiejo IS Blitzen IS Gaye Dalton is Cricket’s Courage IS Zeraeph IS …

The mind boggles.

Best ignore her. She is a dangerous, pathetic, and sick stalker and bully
with marked narcissistic-psychopathic tendencies. Don’t get in her way. From
experience. I have been warning you since her first appearance.

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “CZBZ” npd-cpt6694@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:56 AM
Subject: Re: [npd] this is ridiculous!

#46

On the contrary Gypsy,

It is of VITAL importance that we do not “go round calling it” a name that is already taken for something else quite different that real people are already diagnosed with.

That’s like calling a pain in your ear a “grumbling appendix”…it just confuses everything and makes it harder to communicate not only the truth of what is happening, but also the needs of all involved.

Have you ever thought about the fact that as long as you (wrongly) demonize NPD people who do suffer from it will find it hard, or even impossible to recognize in themselves and admit to, let alone seek help for?

For the same reasons, we need to label the behavior, not pretend to diagnose the person.

We are not qualified to diagnose people, if we were we wouldn’t be objective enough, that’s why Doctors aren’t allowed to treat anyone close to them.

We know if we are being abused, we DO NOT KNOW if the abuser has a personality disorder or not.

We are qualified to define abuse, but we are not qualified to redefine (or define) medical disorders or syndromes.

Besides calling abuse a “syndrome” just sanitizes it and suggests that nobody is fully responsible for it, when, on the contrary, complex psychological and emotional abuse is more likely to be premeditated and/or fully conscious than any other kind of abuse.

I think “Caligula Abuse” has similarly uncomfortable pronunciation to “Borgian Abuse”, there are also some misleading connotations of psychosis and hallucinatory delusion in the concept “Caligula” - always seems to me most likely he had some curious combination of psychopathy and schizophrenia, or maybe syphillis?

GD

#47

Gypsy said - But I will not forget about my fellow sufferers and hope I can help, having only my experience to offer.

You've got heart Gypsy :)

 

#48

You do NOT have to buy my book. It is NOT about money.

The ENTIRE FULL text of ALL my books is available ONLINE AT NO CHARGE!

Show me another author who does that!

WI am a greedy ba**stard, why would I place all the texts online, no strings
attached, no payment required?

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “VICTIM” npd-cpt6694@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 2:03 AM
Subject: Re: [npd] this is ridiculous!

#49

Narcissists, Love and Healing

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq74.html

Narcissism and Self Love

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq23.html

The Pathology of Love

http://samvak.tripod.com/lovepathology.html

Take care there, guys.

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “gypsy” npd-cpt6694@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:47 AM
Subject: Re: [npd] this is ridiculous!

#50

well lets be honest Sam, SOME of it is about money.

Everybody has to make a living, and you, unlike me, DO NOT lack self-marketing skills.

All the power to ya (just PLEASE stop linking us to death!).

I’m one of the lucky people in this world who LOVES her job, so I often feel bad for taking the healthy salary I get, but I also need and want it. No shame in that as far as I can tell.

I found your online excerpts the same time my gf was given your book by a therapist friend .

I was just thinking reading this thread, what was most useful about your book and boards/forums that talk about it, were these concepts that woke me up:
-partners of N are in a fog
-malignant optimism
-no hope for change

and a peek inside the thoughts of a person who seemed so much like my partner that it made all his confusing behaviour understandable

and THAT meant I wasnt the crazy one I had almost been convinced I was.

Everything became more intense but definitely turned a corner in my life then from misery to I-dont-have-to-be-in-misery-if-I-dont-want-to-anymore.

I dont care if youre a flippin genius or a madhatter, I just care that my malignant optimism was destroyed and I could MOVE…I was finally unstuck and could FINALLY walk away.

#51

Susiejo IS Blitzen IS Gaye Dalton is Cricket's Courage IS Zeraeph IS ...

 

Yes, we've been seeing them as (what I like to call) the B-unit for awhile now. 

 

 

#52

Thank you for your kind words, Phoenix!

Narcissism is NOT my job. I have a job: I am a political and economic
analyst. That’s how I make money. NO ONE makes money out of books (except,
perhaps, Rowling and Dan Brown).

You are right:

My main aim is and has always been to EMPOWER the victims, to VALIDATE their
feelings, to tell them that they are NOT the crazy-making ones.

Take care there!

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “thephoenix101” npd-cpt6694@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] this is ridiculous!

#53

No, it is the SAME, SINGLE, PERSON. There are is no THEY or THEM, only a
SHE.

This is a fact, not speculation. She stupidly uses the same aliases wherever
she goes (although she does maintain two dozen aliases).

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “thephoenix101” npd-cpt6694@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] this is ridiculous!

#54

Sam,

Why have you consistently spent 9 years publicly misrepresenting people you know to be, predatory, unscrupulous and manifest all the attributes that YOU call “Malignant Narcissism” as providing valid sources of support and healing?

GD

#55

Gypsy, You are demonstrating one of Blitzen’s points about having been sucked into a cult. It is not simply the misuse of narcissistic personality disorder as a term.

You were in a relationship with someone. You observed behaviors and experienced problems having an intimate ongoing relationship with them. Your significant other said the problem was you, and you believed them. So one day on the internet, you find a group of people who say oh, we experienced the same thing. The problem is not you, it is your significant other.

You are okay to that point. But then you are steered onto the wrong path as you gather the same so called “education” that these others have from Sam Vakin which says that significant other is just an evil ass – an abuser. And the only solution to everyone’s problem is to leave the person, and abuse them back by exposing them to the world.

Sorry, but that is really messed up thinking, worse than what you had when you first met the internet groupees of Sam’s. You have obtained no education actually. You have accepted the preachings of a person with no credentials in neurology or psychology, and who has a very disreputable record of criminality. And like the rest of the groupees, you have accepted the hedonist imperative to have regard for yourself and yourself only as you seek that perfect relationship (which does not really exist).

Now, are you so sure that you are not still as stupid as you were when you accepted this new perspective? Are you so sure that your significant other was not actually suffering from a form of epilepsy? You know, those with frontal lobe epilepsy can have the exact same symptoms and behavioral problems that are defined by Sam and his cultists. There are actually many neurological problems that could be causing your significant others narcissistic personality. And because of the brain dysfunction, they usually are not able to properly self assess what is going with themselves and need people who care to direct them to doctors and then to tell those doctors how their significant other has been acting.

Is it beyond your comprehension that this “exposing” of such people as is being advocated on this board is beyond human decency? It is the same as the witch hunts of Salem. So many have fought to change the prejudice and stigmas of those with mental illnesses and here in the 21st century is this mob mentality screaming to publicly point these people out and stone them. It is disgusting and revolting actually.

This head twisting to such a horrible perspectives and actions is what makes Sam and his groupees so dangerous and destructive.

#56

Gypsy,
It sounds like you know what you know.

I get it.

Its like going to a therapy session and the therapist introduces a concept or opinion of whats going on with you, a few different things usually happen.

  • the lightbulb goes off and you have your A-HA moment (the therapist nailed it on the head)
  • you get really uncomfortable because you KNOW thats not it (a good therapist will then believe you and ask you to explain what might REALLY be “it” then)
  • you get really uncomfortable because you feel your own inner lie having to face what might be the truth, you dont deny it, but you cant quite accept it yet either (and usually what happens is you go home and it works its way around your head to where you accept it by the next appt, or perhaps you amended it, honed it to be the more accurate truth for you)

If you got your A-HA moment about your relationship with your ex, I get that that becomes unshakeable even in the face of a barrage of contradictions from anoither source.

You wont go back to being ignorant of what you know.

Its not possible for me or Sam or CZ or the snipers to convince you out of what you KNOW.

And thats all that matters.

If like Angie you want to tell your story to a writer at O magazine, or post here on this forum, do it. There is a wealth of riches in people’s narratives. And then let go of it. Dont ever feel you need to defend it.

Go with what you KNOW.

#57

Phoenix,

gypsy wrote: " And then of course, the glorious idea of showing him, exposing him, yeah right,…ha! "

And you think that is healthy? And you work with teenagers helping them do exactly what? Learn mature ways of dealing with conflicts? Heaven forbid.

#58

Sam said: Thank you for your kind words, Phoenix!

 

Enjoy it Sam, I'm still feeling kind today, so youre welcome :)

 

#59

Yeah Phoenix,

Go with what you KNOW.

Particularly if you “know” that the pain in your ear is appendicitis, that’ll work EVERY time…they must have mention that when they were training you in this mysterious brand of therapy you refuse to admit to?

Susiejo,

Trouble is it isn’t limited to “exposing” people who have abused someone, also, by association, Sam’s agenda demonises anyone who is diagnosed with Pathological Narcissism or NPD, and, as Sam “expands” to take in more, and more, disorders, all people diagnosed with conditions like Histrionic PD, Borderline PD, Schizoid PD even Asperger Syndrome.

This may sound really callous, but even if an abuser suffers from a form of frontal lobe epilepsy, I think people on the receiving have to decide whether they can (or should) take it any more or not which is yet ANOTHER reason why we HAVE to separate abuse from whether it originates in disorder or not.

We know for sure abuse is caused by abusers…everything else is just guessing, even if you don’t hijack and misapply the name of a personality disorder to it.

GD

#60

susiejo or btdt100 sure sound alike

There are actually many neurological problems that could be causing your significant others narcissistic personality. And because of the brain dysfunction, they usually are not able to properly self assess what is going with themselves and need people who care to direct them to doctors and then to tell those doctors how their significant other has been acting.

 IF IT IS NEUROLOGICAL, JUST WHO AND WHAT WILL

 THEY DO TO FIX THEM? DIET OR A BRAIN TRANSPLANT??????????

YOU SEEM TO KNOW MORE THAN THE EXPERTS,

WHY DON'T YOU INFORM US ALL, HOW TO DEAL

WITH THEM, INSTEAD OF SLAPPING US ALL AROUND???

PLEASE TELL US ALL HOW TO GET ALONG WITH THESE PEOPLE,

WHAT MORE WE CAN DO TO HELP AND ACCOMODATE THEM,

 OR HELP THEIR POOR SOULS!

Is it beyond your comprehension that this “exposing” of such people as is being advocated on this board is beyond human decency? It is the same as the witch hunts of Salem. So many have fought to change the prejudice and stigmas of those with mental illnesses and here in the 21st century is this mob mentality screaming to publicly point these people out and stone them. It is disgusting and revolting actually. This head twisting to such a horrible perspectives and actions is what makes Sam and his groupees so dangerous and destructive.

 NO ONE IS CALLING FOR AN N HUNT TO BURN OR STONE THEM ALL!!!!!!!

REDICULOUS COMPARRISON

EXPOSING THEM, EACH PERSON IS TALKING ABOUT "THEIR" EXPERIENCE WITH ONE AND TRYING TO PICK UP THE PIECES AND MOVE ON WITH THEIR LIVES.

 THERE IS NO WAY TO TAG THEM OR EXPOSE THEM, THEY MOVE ON HURTING MORE PEOPLE WHO COME INTO THIER LIVES. THEY DON'T KNOW THEY ARE CARRIERS OF AN ILLNESS THAT INFLICTS MISERY, PAIN AND SUFFERING.

HOW DO WE STOP THEM? WHO WILL STOP THEM?

 WHO WILL HELP THEM? HOW CAN THEY BE HELPED?

CAN YOU TELL US YOUR PLAN? JUST WHAT DO WE DO WITH THESE PEOPLE?

You certainly have a way with words and your style of offering support sure sounds like a narcissist, not an ounce of empathy for the people who are hurting. Maybe they are not calling their abuse what you want to hear, but they still have been abused and hurt, they acknowledge that and realize they need to work on them selves. Are you also against self awareness and self improvement too, can you offer a better plan for that?

WHY ARE YOU HERE IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT IS GOING ON WITH EVERYONE TRYING TO HEAL AND MOVE ON.

HOW ARE WE HARMING YOU OR BLITZEN?

THIS IS ABOUT "HURTING PEOPLE" TRYING TO HEAL AND MOVE ON. SOME MIGHT BE INSPIRED TO MAKE THIS THEIR LIFE WORK, MOST OF US DO NOT, WE WANT TO GET BACK INTO LIFE, AND PUT THIS BEHIND US.

YOU HAVE SAID QUITE A FEW THINGS THAT SAY YOU ARE "BTDT100". You mentioned me still being married, you came on, how did you know that? My sory has been deleted. I AM SORRY THAT YOU ARE STILL HURTING AND STRIKING OUT. HAVEN'T YOU WASTED ENOUGH OF YOUR LIFE ON HIM, PLEASE PUT THIS ALL BEHIND YOU AND START LIVING A BETTER LIFE FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY, THEY NEED YOU. THIS IS A WASTE OF TIME AND LIFE AND WILL NOT HELP YOU, YOU ARE GIVING HIM YOUR WHOLE LIFE, HE TOOK ENOUGH DIDN'T HE?

WHO ARE YOU, WHICH ONE ARE YOU? SUSIEJO OR BTDT100                                             Hugs mamolie