oh Gaye!
coy
as well as cute?
I’m taking notes - boys love that stuff 
have a great evening.
well, if nothing else, you had an impact
The Serious Narcissist
http://samvak.tripod.com/faq52.html
Transformations of Aggression
http://samvak.tripod.com/aggression.html
The Self-Deprecating Narcissist
http://samvak.tripod.com/journal39.html
----- Original Message -----
From: “thephoenix101” npd-cpt6829@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Victim Mentality
Sam,
which one of my copious posts are you responding to?
susiejo
I will bet, you are wrong about those threads that have
one: 46 posts, 574" VIEWS"
and the other: 39 posts, 566" VIEWS"
NOT POSTS "VIEWS"
THAT MEANS PEOPLE READING ,
NOT RESPONDING TO THE POSTS,
Sorry, YOU GOT IT WRONG!!
IT IS HARD FOR ME TO BELIEVE TOO,
THAT YOU COULD BE MIXED UP ON SOME OF YOUR FACTS ! !
Hug mamolie
I don’t have a problem being human, nor wrong. Susiejo and Blitxen still though are the most popular topic for you guys cause we rock!!!
Susie,
Do you suppose those 85 posts, that, to the casual observer, might look like personal attacks, are, in fact…
INVERTED FAN-FICTION.
:o)
GD
WOW! I just put on my computer, the first time in three days, and there isn’t one damn thing in writing about kindness, thanks, support, or plain ol’ being nice to one another. This is narcissism at its core. Blitzen/Susiejo/Gaye is the hook, and we keep allowing ourselves to get hooked in. Why are we explaining anything to her? Please people, I can understand the adrenaline and the need and/or desire to explain oneself when one is accosted, but what I finally learned, FINALLY, through therapy and my own experience, is that you don’t have to explain anything, she is not listening. There is no empathy here. This is not a forum for healing. This is a place for being accosted and for daring to raise an eyebrow or two about the causation of narcissistic personality disorder, and the debri it leaves behind for those who almost gave their life; we are left picking up the pieces.
I think you are right Blitxen.
I find you extremely informative and intelligent. You are REAL!!! And you
are NOT crazy!!!
Sam:
I fully agree. Phoenix is a blessing to this list. The only beef I have with
her is her intellectual laziness. She wants to be spoon-fed and refuses to
invest effort into discovering things for herself, reading, and surfing. But
this may be owing to her general fatigue and exhaustion as a victim of
abuse. I wish her full recovery.
MarielLee,
i think I did post something about “kindness, thanks, support, or plain ol’ being nice to one another.” I also saw the thread get incredibly quiet after that. Maybe its because we did talk about kindness and being nice, maybe it because it was Thanskgiving, maybe its because of something totally unrelated I dont know about.
But the sentiment youre making clear is exactly what prompted me to make an invitation to be nice.
I’d be interested in knowing what you think about victim mentality that is also kind and supportive.
Not because I’m trying to be challenging, but because I think this thread could use it…and because…well…I could use it 
Marilee,
You as most others have seemingly hopefully been enjoying your holiday. Participants to conversations were sparse the last few days, some of us had some fun sparing including Phoenix. If you don’t understand that, I can send you some of the private messages to the effect.
I feel the attacks have come to me for bringing up causes to NPD contrary to the majority opinions. It is hard to come in days later and follow all the comments in order. Had you been here and being doing so, you would have seen a cross over from the board where conversation had wanned, and members of that board throwing chum out to stir up the fishes by targeting Blitxen and myself so to get conversation going.
I think it was an excellent idea to have a special board for “Healing” and support, and to have another board that can discuss issues related to NPD in broad spectrum. I personally think neither board is going to survive unless the BS stops and this is a good way for that to happen. But it will only happen if everyone respects that and stops the attacks.
So in pursuit of that, I think this topic of victim mentality is a good one. In reviewing responses and reactions to it, it seems to me that the suggestion that one not view themselves as a victim has been interpreted to mean that I am suggesting no hurt or wrong occurred. That is not the case at all. Rather it is about how we perceive those hurts and wrongs, and draw conclusions as to why the other person caused them.
Phoenix101,
I am sorry, I really wasn’t referring to you. I was referring to the back-lash, and then all of us who feel/felt that we have to respond/get sucked in. I just kept reading the same ol’–same ol’ and none of it was about supporting. These conversations were the exact conversations I would have with my ex-husband when I was trying to make him see what he was doing, and without a doubt, the feeling I have after leaving these conversations are the same feelings I walked away with once my conversation with my ex-husband was finished. After six years of therapy I see it so clearly.
I totally agree with what I believe you were saying about the victim mentality issue. I think I said it in the past postings. If you look at the word “victim” and it’s definition, you will see “injured party,” or “wounded.” I do believe that those of us dealing with relationships with a NPD partner have either been injured or wounded, therefore, I would say that we have been victim to the behaviors of our partner(s). I believe what Blitzen/Susiejo is saying is that we have to take responsibility for every action and circumstance in our life; we have to embrace it and not allow it to control our life, and with that I agree, HOWEVER, it doesn’t happen over night; there is a grieving process. I say, those of us who are here, have. I say that the abuse is sometimes so subtle that we question many times before we realize. I say, it’s not until we “get healthy” (because it’s only then that we can make those clear choices/clear responses), when we will be fully able to not only control our responses, but we will now be able to control our circumstances as well. I say to everybody here, I am proud that you have all come this far, at the very least, “the recognition phase,” and realize that when ever we have come to full terms with what narcissism is and how/why we allowed ourselves to stay in these unhealthy relationships, it is only then that we can take back our life and get reaquainted with ourselves. None of this is about victimizing ourselves, they are the ones who conveniently have done that; it is about getting healthy and moving on to healthier relationships.
Phoenix101,
I am sad that you are sad because this is a tough one to break away from. I never ever felt so “I don’t even know how to express the feeling,” but to say that I was nearly debilitated, but with each new day, and the support from a therapist and friends, it will get better; that is a promise. Everything you are feeling is “normal” for how you should feel. It has been written that those left behind have a much harder time healing than the narcissisist him/herself, but that eventually we will be healed. We wouldn’t be here if we were martyrs.
I find you extremely informative and intelligent. You are REAL!!! And you are NOT crazy!!! And for one, I have agreed with a lot you have said.
Mariel Lee
Mariel,
thank you so much for your kind words. They come at a fragile moment in time, very much appreciated.
I dont think I'm crazy either LOL, but theres a reason I choose the work I do, that I went back to school for what I did. Theres some part of me that identifies on some level with people who are hurting, stuck, and repeating patterns over and over again that isolate themselves from real contactfulness with other, and from a high quality of life. I think thats also one of the reasons I stayed with my ex despite recognizing years earlier he wasnt normal and wasnt likely to change. I had hope he would. I have hope my students will. And ultimately I have hope I will too.
I'm not crazy or disordered, but boy there are days or long nights when I feel like I am. Not so much pre-N but a lot since he left.
I recognize this is a recovery process, not a recovery choice (if only it could be that easy) but in those moments where I'm not working, and I'm not out with friends, and I'm not being creative with my photography or painting, or cuddling up/taking care of my son...when there are days liek today when I'm by myself, and its quiet and I have nothing but time to keep me company, Ihave a heart that wishes very intensely that things would just be easy...that life post-N would be easy....and my faith that it will again one day hangs tenuously by a thread.
I was a victim too, and while I stayed there with him, I agreed by my choice to let him continue victimizing me. And he chose to.
I wish I hated him today like I hated him last month. But today I feel sadness...for me...and for him too. I'm sad I xcant recall what his face looks like, or his voice sounded like. I feel sad that such a large part of my life for 8 years is gone, and that I dont even have good feelings about having had it.
I feel robbed...tricked.
yanno? so yeah today I'm in that mentality, and hopefully tomorrow I'll wake up feeling different.
you wrote:
I say that the abuse is sometimes so subtle that we question many times before we realize. I say, it's not until we "get healthy" (because it's only then that we can make those clear choices/clear responses), when we will be fully able to not only control our responses, but we will now be able to control our circumstances as well.
I'm looking forward to that day at the same time I'm singing "will it ever happen?".
you got heart Mariel :)
That was uncalled for…and partially correct.
I am fatigued, today I’m dreadfully tired.
Also I am not intellectually lazy since you and I had that private discussion about Child Genius and self-sabotage. I’ve set the wheels in motion to return and do another year of study. I’m reading through 2 books to refresh my memory since graduation 2 years ago.
I also surf plenty, in fact probably too many hours, but thats to feed my creative lifeblood and sanity, which is my photography and painting.
I cant do everything in terms of following my interests, and my career, and my son, and my social life. There just arent enough hours in the day.
I recognize the value in conversation, ESPECIALLY in terms of recovery. Thats why the 12 step groups and therapy are likely more effective in treating addictions than studying about acoholism or writing theses about drug abuse. People need people…well I know I need people, to talk to, to listen to, to share with, to be mirrored in, to be distracted by, broadened by, to be reminded I’m not alone and that life is a ridiculous journey. I really needed that today. Doing research wouldnt have helped me in that.
I’d like you to take my word for it Sam. I believe its different for you, that books and internet research is more valuable to you than contactfulness with others. I’m willing to accept both of our differences. I’m just also very open about my disappointment when it comes up. I’m not a shy, or diplomatic person :o
And…thank you for appreciating my presence…and for taking note that I’m really dragging my emotional butt around today
It’s so interesting the way people behave. I don’t know if you’ve been watching the news about this guy Peterson (another Peterson); could be spelled with an “e,” Petersen, and the fact that the baby from wife #4 is named Lacy, however, my point is, that this guy had four wives, wife #3 and #4 are dead/missing–dead? This guy walks around like the celebrity, not being able to keep his mouth shut because he loves himself in the limelight. In the meantime, wife number four is missing, he claims that she’s run off with a mystery man; (someone like him would surely be that nonchalant about such a move on her part). Anyway, it’s interesting the dynamics that make people tick. Here is a man who is obviously a sociopath (anti-social behavior), and in my book, narcissistic. He is somebody’s son and father, which means that he is unconditionally loved. He has repeatedly continued a pattern of abusive behavior. He had four woman who obviously at one time loved him, and at one time, they believed that he loved them. Are we to believe that he loved any one of them? Can we call these women his victims? Did they “ALLOW” themselves to be treated this way? It’s funny, when I read about people like this man, or watch them in action on television, it makes me think about the pattern of abuse and the “spectrum” of abuse that people endure. Does one form of abuse make the abuser any more “acceptable?” Does the color of skin, eyes, hair, or beautiful smile make him/her socially acceptable or loveable? Because people can fein the words, “I love you…,” are we to BELIEVE? Where is the cut off point when we say enough is enough? When do we start believing in ourselves?
I went back home this Thanksgiving, (as I have moved out of state/taken control of my circumstances), and spent time with my family. My sons spent the day with me, but did however visit with their dad. I learned that their dad was having an intimate Thanksgiving with his new wife and “her” two children; he did all the cooking. In all our 23 years together, my husband didn’t so much as boil water for us. NEVER would we have an intimate dinner with just the four of us; we had to always be with family, HIS! And when I would do the talking at the dinner table, he would move the chair as loud as he could, and remove himself (with plate) from the table, letting our company know that what I had to say wasn’t important. My point is that when I heard this, I was hurt (somewhat), but not devastated. I was angry, but not destroyed, and I was sad for my sons, but they didn’t need pity. The old me would have been on the computer, pounding the keys, letting him know what he never did for us and all that he is doing for his “fake” family, yaddi-yaddi-yadda, but today, I let it roll off my back. Yes, a pang, very small, felt sorry for him, because he had lost so much. And, a pang of what “she” must go though from time to time, knowing what I know, but I know that my agony and suffering had its purpose. My taking control of the circumstances brought others to see the clearer picture. I no longer have to try to rectify all the wrongs.
Going back to Peterson; was there one woman who changed his life/made him happy? Was there one woman more beautiful than the other who could make him dance? Unfortunately, NO! And unfortunately, two of his “victims” have lost their voice forever.
I agree that Peterson is an interesting fellow. But you have to be very careful of the press, they have a bad habit of grabbing this fact or that and running with it, leaving other facts out of context. Naming that child Lacy was done after another specific relative in the family so that is just mere coincidence. The first wife may well have been murdered but there is not a case yet saying he did it. Someone else could have done that.
This missing wife was having an affair on him. Last I heard they had ruled her lover out as a suspect but that he had caught them together just days before she disappeared. A long time ago in my state, catching a spouse in bed with another person could be used as a defense in losing it emotionally and committing involuntary manslaughter as opposed to manslaughter. The point is that people do have a tendency sometimes to lose it under those circumstances. It does not make them a psychopath. Most people are actually killed by spouses or close family members in moments of passionate rages or fights (I think it is like 90% of most murders). Statistically, these people never kill again, never letting themselves get caught in such emotionally volatile situations.
But if it is all true and this is #2 murder, I would agree Patterson is definitely an ASP (psychopath), but I would not agree that he is NPD. Serial killing of wives is really not too typical of them.
And I do think killing is much much more abusive than chewing your wife out for not enough starch in the shirts, no where near equivalent.
According to forensic psychiatrists, not all narcissists are sociopaths, but all sociopaths are narcissistic.
According to the news and wife #4’s family, the wife #4 did not have a lover/boyfriend–ever! Wife #3 had a boyfriend after Peterson married wife #4.
That’s what I mean about the news. I swear I saw the police even stating there was a boyfriend, smutty emails on her computer, and Petterson had found out about him just a few days before her disappearance.
Narcissistic is a personality trait, everyone has it to some degree.