The greater point of all, is what is normal beahavior, and what is abnormal.
According to forensic psychiatrists, not all narcissists are sociopaths, but
all sociopaths are narcissistic.
Sam:
Not true at all.
SOME patients are diagnosed with BOTH disorders. OTHERS are diagnosed with
EITHER disorder. Yet OTHERS are diagnosed with EITHER disorder PLUS OTHER
disorders.
Can women and children be the only target of a narcissist? And why?
On Nov 25, 2007, at 10:03 AM, samvaknin wrote:
I don’t understand the question.
Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: “bup” npd-cpt6829@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Victim Mentality
Narcissist target women and children more than men.
Sam, I just often feel as if my bro and dad target women and
children more when it comes to their control issues. But with men,
it is more behind their backs (the haughty arrogance). The
difference between chauvinism and narcissism with these two is
sometimes difficult to make the distinction. If you met them,
trust me, you would know what I was talking about. It is hard to
describe…But they place themselves in roles of
distinction, royalty, and being above it all. And MOST people jump
on the bandwagon. But that is where the abuse starts with me. I now
know that they put me in a place that is beneath them. They have
shattered my concept of myself and my own children at times so in
their presence I feel as if I am not as worthy of compliments,love
or recognition . NOW I KNOW the madness behind the mirror.
On Nov 25, 2007, at 10:31 AM, samvaknin wrote:
On Nov 25, 2007, at 10:31 AM, samvaknin wrote:
It is easier to prey on the weak and the meek.
Also, narcissists hold the weak and the meek in disdain and contempt.
Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: “bup” npd-cpt6829@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Victim Mentality
Sam,
While I am not a forensic psychiatrist by any means, and I am a laymen who has read and read and read about this topic called narcissism, and lived with it all my life, when I made that statement about not all narcissists are sociopaths, but all sociopaths are narcissists, I am taking that from the horse’s mouth, a forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Keith Ablow, when he depicted Scott Peterson. He made that blanket statement on live television about both the narcissist and the sociopath, I guess it’s where you study and who says what.
Sam,
While you are having a few hands of “Interview with a Vampire”, and it is more than usually relevant, perhaps you would like to explain…as I asked you earlier in the week…
Define what YOU mean when you use the term “The Narcissist”?
GD
Ironically Bup, I have never been “weak.” However, my ex-husband tried to depict me as such, but when it came to death and dying, and losing a loved one, I showed my strength. When it came to situations that arose where it took a strong person to handle, I showed my strength, but one thing I did do was show my emotions, and that is when he called me “over emotional.” He tried to make me feel inadequate for showing emotions. He accused me CONSTANTLY of being sick. If I cried (for whatever LEGITIMATE reason) he would call me sick. And when I cried it was over very serious issues, sometimes including the way he had treated me. When he did this, I seriously believed that he was envious of my strength. And once, when he was diagnosed with atrial fibrilation and told that they have done all they could, and that while this was not life threatening, he did have to stay on medication all his life (until other treatments were discovered), he fainted in the doctor’s office. He could not handle being told he had a flaw.
It’s funny, my father was so attentive when I was a baby. But when I grew and had needs, he disregarded me, and often yelled and screamed if I cried. I do believe my father has a personality disorder, but I can not diagnose, and I am constantly questioning which one or ones they are, he is also an alcoholic and compulsive gambler. God help you if you dare discuss such a thing with him.
My mother, a tad more than quite a tad selfish, has too put her needs before my sister and mine, hence, the care taker/co-dependent personality we inherited, she too had very serious issues regarding men in her life; couldn’t seem to have a relationship worth while with any of them. The only love in her life was a man who abused her. It’s mind boggling. Her
father, my grandfather was a very political, wealthy man, and she idolized him. She compared everyone to him. The one that came the closest was the man who abused her the most (outside of my father).
I did not suspect YOU of making this statement.
It is completely wrong, though.
It is not a question of where you study what and from whom - it is simply
100% wrong. Not one text, paper, or book supports this conclusion.
BUT
I couldn’t find such a statement in any of Ablow’s Court TV or Oprah or
other TV show transcripts. I find it very difficult to believe that he made
such a statement. Can you refer me to the precise source?
Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: “mariel lee” npd-cpt6829@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Victim Mentality
Yea, that is what I thought you would
say…Thanks…Unfortunate for them because if you have
women and children on your side, you will go further in
life…and feel warmth…No need for
grandiosity and arrogance when you have the love of family.
On Nov 25, 2007, at 11:48 AM, samvaknin wrote:
I honestly can’t. It was a program I watched. Maybe I am taking it out of context, however, I do believe it was said point blank, as I used his words in conversation before when we have discussed this topic, stating where I heard it from at the time. It was on either Court TV, CNN/Larry King, or other. I have read a few of his books and he obviously knows his stuff, but I would be a liar if I told you where it came from.
Bup,
There are female NPD’s, and their partners go through all the same things that women do. Guys don’t like being lied to, manipulated, or cheated on either. Also, if an NPD is too high and mighty to feed the cat or change the litter box, the cat’s life isn’t so hot either. It can also really disrupt the workplace for men and women alike.
The female NPD I knew would target men more than women. Perhaps its easier to mess with opposite sex.
Bup,
You are sooooo right. I lived for 23 years with my ex-husband, doing most of the raising of my sons. I loved having a family, but it was so hard being a part of this one. I was never ever ever good enough. I was built up, only to be torn down. I was listening to Steve Martin on the Morning Show this morning about his childhood. He said that he always thought that he had a good childhood, until he lived outside of his home, then when he grew up he realized that his childhood was not so great. I can not even tell you that I thought my marriage was a "good"one. I always knew something was lacking, and I guess my selfish part in all of it was that I wanted it to work so badly; nothing meant more to me than having a family, a “real” family.
It is only today, after having the most wonderful man in my life that I feel everything I have lacked and more. I now can feel the difference, the only saddest part of it all is that my family is still broken. It will never be the dream I wanted; holidays are similar to my growing up years, they have to be shared. It is not what I ever dreamed of, but fortunately, my children, no matter how late it is in their life, now have a good example to follow.
not all narcissists are sociopaths, but all sociopaths are narcissists
See post by “Diane1969” (whoever she is, I have no idea) the one with a list from PCL-R in it:
http://www.psychopath-research.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7653&Main=1923
But Sam has often said the same thing himself. I know because I have had a couple of blazing rows with him about it. He’s just being contrary. If I’d had time to post earlier to refute that statement myself he’d be agreeing with you.
GD
I copied and pasted:
Diagnostic criteria (PCL-R test) In contemporary research and clinical practice, psychopathy is most commonly assessed with the Hare Psychopathy Checklist- Revised (PCL-R), which is a clinical rating scale with 20 items. Each of the items in the PCL-R is scored on a three-point scale according to specific criteria through file information and a semi-structured interview. The items are as follows: Factor 1: Aggressive narcissism * Glibness/superficial charm * Grandiose sense of self-worth * Pathological lying * Cunning/manipulative * Lack of remorse or guilt * Shallow affect * Callous/lack of empathy * Failure to accept responsibility for own actions Factor 2: Socially deviant lifestyle * Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom * Parasitic lifestyle * Poor behavioral controls * Early behavioral problems * Lack of realistic, long-term goals * Impulsivity * Irresponsibility * Juvenile delinquency * Revocation of conditional release * Continual acceptance antisocial behaviour Traits not correlated with either factor * Promiscuous sexual behavior * Many short-term marital relationships * Criminal versatility
Thats my ex!!!
Hi Blitzen!
HOw was your weekend? Good I hope.
I’m familiar with the tests length, and I enjoyed rereading the Aggressive Narcissism section.
If you dont mind though, I’m going to stay on this forum and talk about myself and how difficult it was being the victim of my ex in our relationship…I feel comfy here right now with the other survivors, and I doubt if my ex was N or ASP that my experience would be all that different as a survivor either way.
Female narcissists
http://samvak.tripod.com/faq34.html
Narcissistic stalkers
http://samvak.tripod.com/abuse18.html
Bullies
http://samvak.tripod.master.com/texis/master/search/?q=bully
----- Original Message -----
From: “wastedyouth” npd-cpt6829@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Victim Mentality
Phoenix:
Diagnostic criteria (PCL-R test) In contemporary research and clinical
practice, psychopathy is most commonly assessed with the Hare Psychopathy
Checklist- Revised (PCL-R), which is a clinical rating scale with 20 items.
Each of the items in the PCL-R is scored on a three-point scale according to
specific criteria through file information and a semi-structured
interview. The items are as follows: Factor 1: Aggressive narcissism *
Glibness/superficial charm * Grandiose sense of self-worth * Pathological
lying * Cunning/manipulative * Lack of remorse or guilt * Shallow affect *
Callous/lack of empathy * Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
Factor 2: Socially deviant lifestyle * Need for stimulation/proneness to
boredom * Parasitic lifestyle * Poor behavioral controls * Early behavioral
problems * Lack of realistic, long-term goals * Impulsivity *
Irresponsibility * Juvenile delinquency * Revocation of conditional release
- Continual acceptance antisocial behaviour Traits not correlated with
either factor * Promiscuous sexual behavior * Many short-term marital
relationships * Criminal versatility
Thats my ex!!!
Sam:
Phoenix, this is the OLD version of the PCL-R. It is no longer in use.
In both the old and the new editions, you don’t have to score in ALL these
to be classified as a “psychopath”. There are different TYPES of psychopath
diagnosed with this test (only one of them is the"narcissistic" psychopath).
Many narcissists score low on narcissism and high on other factors.
Additionally, the PCL-R includes a very important INTERVIEW part.
By the way, the DSM Committee strongly disagrees with Hare’s work and
refuses to accept the PCL-R as a valid test. This is a great shame. Hare and
the DSM Committee also disagree on whether "antisocial personality disorder"
is the same as “psychopathy” or not.
More here:
http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders11.html
OOPS!
Should have been:
Many PSYCHOPATHS score low on narcissism and high on other factors.
Phoenix, this is the OLD version of the PCL-R. It is no longer in use.
In both the old and the new editions, you don’t have to score in ALL these
to be classified as a “psychopath”. There are different TYPES of psychopath
diagnosed with this test (only one of them is the"narcissistic" psychopath).
Many PSYCHOPATHS score low on narcissism and high on other factors.
Additionally, the PCL-R includes a very important INTERVIEW part.
By the way, the DSM Committee strongly disagrees with Hare’s work and
refuses to accept the PCL-R as a valid test. This is a great shame. Hare and
the DSM Committee also disagree on whether "antisocial personality disorder"
is the same as “psychopathy” or not.
More here:
http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders11.html
http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders16.html
http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders15.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Vaknin author of “Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited”"
palma@unet.com.mk
To: “thephoenix101” npd-cpt6829@lists.careplace.com
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Victim Mentality
Phoenix:
Diagnostic criteria (PCL-R test) In contemporary research and clinical
practice, psychopathy is most commonly assessed with the Hare Psychopathy
Checklist- Revised (PCL-R), which is a clinical rating scale with 20 items.
Each of the items in the PCL-R is scored on a three-point scale according to
specific criteria through file information and a semi-structured
interview. The items are as follows: Factor 1: Aggressive narcissism *
Glibness/superficial charm * Grandiose sense of self-worth * Pathological
lying * Cunning/manipulative * Lack of remorse or guilt * Shallow affect *
Callous/lack of empathy * Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
Factor 2: Socially deviant lifestyle * Need for stimulation/proneness to
boredom * Parasitic lifestyle * Poor behavioral controls * Early behavioral
problems * Lack of realistic, long-term goals * Impulsivity *
Irresponsibility * Juvenile delinquency * Revocation of conditional release
- Continual acceptance antisocial behaviour Traits not correlated with
either factor * Promiscuous sexual behavior * Many short-term marital
relationships * Criminal versatility
Thats my ex!!!
Sam: