We are certainly aware now, but even at that, we have to be careful. They are great actors and even magicians with their slick moves, they can fool you for a little while anyways, but not ever like before. We are armed with knowledge and we know how the trick works now, it is only an illusion, not real.
Isn’t that just a little superstitious?
GD
To the obsessive compulsive aspect - neuroscientist’s term is disinhibition. I always thought of compulsive behaviors as something driving the person to do something obsessively. Actually, the reverse is true. It is the loss of inhibitions - those things that tell us NOT to do something. This is the guy who tells the grand lies that are so stupid, no one believes them and sees him as a fool. But he has lost those inhibitions that make him restrain himself from making a fool of himself. It also is referred to as “loss of impulse control”. (Oh do note, it is tied to frontal lobe dysfunction/damage of the brain)
Clinical concept of disinhibition
“Dis-inhibition” is a process, of whatever aetiology, which results in an individual having a reduced capacity to edit or manage their immediate impulsive response to a situation.
Disinhibition is a common symptom following a physical injury to the brain, particularly to the frontal lobe. It may also be as a result of delirium, mania or drugs.
An individual experiencing disinhibition is more prone to react according to their feelings and reaction at each moment in time. The individual is less able to exercise their normal control, that is to choose to inhibit some of their responses in the way we all do each day for reasons of politeness or sensitivity or social appropriateness or desire to keep our true feelings hidden from others.
Individuals under the influence of alcohol, for example, exhibit disinhibition in view of the depressant effect of alcohol on the brain’s higher functioning.
YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT ILLUSION MAMOLIE! RIGHT ON! DAVID COPPERFIELD
DISORDER. THE
WORLD OF MAGICAL ILLUSION. THEIR TRICKS OFTEN TIMES ARE QUITE
CALCULATED AND MASTERFUL.
ALSO COMPARED TO CHESS. VERY INTELLIGENT IN THEIR CHESS MOVES. AND
WE WHO DON’T PLAY CHESS, OFTEN HAVE A HARD TIME PLAYING THE
GAME…BUT NOW WE TOTALLY GET THE GAME AND WON’T EVEN START
PLAYING UNLESS OUR RULES AND NEEDS ARE FIRST AND FOREMOST…BRING
ME SOME CHAMPAGNE AND RUB MY FEET…MAYBE I WILL PLAY CHESS,
MAYBE I WON’T. AND IF YOU MANIPULATE ME, I WILL THROW THE GAME ACROSS
THE ROOM…
On Nov 20, 2007, at 6:04 PM, mamolie wrote:
Susiejo,
I don’t think disinhibition explains OCD itself…though it is DEFINATELY a neuro condition (it officially classifies as an “anxiety disorder”, and is regarded as one of the ten most disabling conditions of any kind in the world by the WHO)…
It’s more like, literally, a short circuit in the head that combines two or more rational concepts to make one bizarre obsession that won’t go away…and then suggests a second bizarre combination of concepts as an essential “solution”…and then hardwires it all to the point where, unless you put up one helluva fight, it overrides reality much of the time.
It’s all very calculated…but not on any consciously controllable level. It’s really really strange…
So formalised and implacable, like having an “inner demented Dalek” that you cannot turn off.
…and yet, as far as I can tell, there is also a perfectly normal person in there, quite aware and horrified by it all, and yet unable to decide with enough certainly what is real and what is OCD, to pull the plug on it.
I wouldn’t wish it on ANYONE…
GD
Blitxen,
You are right. So I am learning something today. But as I am reading, they do seem to be related and the interesting thing is that both are thought to be caused by problems in the caudate nucleus part of the brain.
http://huntingtondisease.tripod.com/understandingbehaviour/id18.html
Definition {Disinhibition}
Dysfunction of the caudate nucleus and frontal lobe of the brain may cause difficulty regulating or controlling emotions and impulses. This is called impulsivity of disinhibition. Impaired impulse control may be the reason that some persons affected with HD easily lose their temper, begin to drink too much, or have in appropriate sexual relations.
Also, disinhibition can sometimes contribute to illegal behaviours, such as stealing. Disinhibition usually exhibits as trouble controlling a sudden desire to do or say something that comes to mind, even when the behaviour is hurtful, repetitious, or socially or sexually inappropriate.
Possible Causes
The living or home environment can contribute to disinhibited responses, if it is chaotic or without a reliable routine. Environments without a routine [i.e. meals are at different times every day, activities are not planned but spontaneous] may provoke greater confusion or anxiety which, in turn, may lead to a greater number of outbursts and behaviour problems.
Mild feelings of confusion, annoyance, frustration, irritability, or anxiety may be expressed as strong feelings such as anger, rate or fear.
Damage to the caudate nucleus or circuits connecting the caudate and the frontal lobes can also contribute to impulsivity. One of the primary functions of the caudate is to regulate, or control, the information from the rest of the brain. As the caudate is affected by HD, the regulation mechanisms or the brain break down.
Without the caudate, the brain cannot regulate how much movement, how much feeling, or how much thinking is required in certain situations.
It has been theorized that a miscommunication between the orbital-frontal cortex, the caudate nucleus, and the thalamus may be a factor in the explanation of OCD. The orbitofrontal cortex (OFC) is the first part of the brain to notice whether or not something is wrong. When the OFC notices that something is wrong, it sends an initial “worry signal†to the thalamus. When the thalamus receives this signal, it in turn sends signals back to the OFC to interpret the worrying event. The caudate nucleus lies between the OFC and the thalamus and it prevents the initial worry signal from being sent back to the thalamus after it has already been received. However, it is suggested that in those with OCD, the caudate nucleus does not function properly, and therefore does not prevent this initial signal from recurring. This causes the thalamus to become hyperactive and creates a virtually never-ending loop of worry signals being sent back and forth between the OFC and the thalamus. The OFC responds by increasing anxiety and engaging in compulsive behaviors in an attempt to relieve this apprehension.[3] This over activity of the OFC is shown to be attenuated in patients who have successfully responded to SSRI medication. The increased stimulation of the serotonin receptors 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C in the OFC is believed to cause this inhibition. [[1]]
Well they would be related…
It is in the nature of the world that each thing is related to it’s opposite after all, particularly causally? In a sense they are opposites.
Maybe the kind of early trauma that “trains” our anxieties winds up somehow “time delayed” and associates itself with the wrong trigger…though, without reinforcement by further trauma, we wouldn’t necessarily be conscious of what that was?
I don’t know…I must think of this.
GD
Okay, what’s the point with all of this? What really is the point?
I don’t really understand your question Mariel?
GD
I don’t know…
But my gut says Phoenix was set up…she is so susceptible to attention and flattery…
Apart from which I have seen the same people operate on other boards, and there is always a “Phoenix”, only it’s always a different one, and they always wind up carrying the can.
The truth is, any way you hack it, they do not actually want to discuss Narcissistic Personality Disorder as people are actually diagnosed with it, which is fine, but they don’t want to let us discuss it either, which is not.
GD
PS Sam, is a seperate case, he would probably jump on the bandwagon if I got a gnat bite! :o)
Mariel,
If that is how you feel, then I think you should stop reading my posts?
I don’t go over to the other board and read your posts, let alone post there to critique them.
Gypsy,
This is not what I have found at all:
it comes down to a simple, they don’t care about anyone but them selfs, they are toxic to a relationship, they will suck the love and life out of you and then feel great about them selfs for their accomplishment!
It certainly is not a valid description of NPD, or any disorder. It’s just demonising a medical condition in order to identify it with your subjective feelings about a relationship that failed for you.
What I would say to anyone who is involved with a person with NPD or in any other relationship they are unhappy with is pretty much what I said to SMG on this thread.
“Figure out what you want, what you can realistically have, and whether this relationship is worth it to you”
Because the above IS the only “one size fits all” answer to any relationship, NPD or not.
GD
blitzen, susiejo, all this high tech explanation of them poor guys going into a whatever loop, I think is bl sht!!
For years I watched them to be quite in control of their behavior, when they choose to do so.
They can be the most unrealistic, mean and outright sadistic person with no regards to how it effects their partner and switch in a split second into a wonderful charming most caring person towards you, should someone like their boss, or a friend enter the room.
I call this a master piece of deception and quite calculated, for having a physical disability.!!
This is what they are and they quite enjoy the mental somersaults they cause, that is what makes them happy. It makes them feel supremely smart and in control, over their partners feelings, and they believe they have all the right to do so, since their partner is so dumb not to catch on to it. Thats why they absolutely adore a good confrontation about it, just to dish out some more of absolute unreasonable and quite attacking arguments, just to make you think you got it all wrong and they are the poor misunderstood!!
Brain mis function? Quite the contrary, their brain works just fine and serves them supremely!!
Now, total addiction to the high they must feel, when they succeed by controlling your emotions, thats a different question.
Please guys, there is a beautiful life out there, you all have the right to be happy and be treated fair and loving! There a millions of wonderful caring people out there you can meet and have a sane relation ship with, start thinking about yourself and what you want and go after it, with the same enormous energy, you waste on wondering and trying to figure out how your N functions. It is very easy, its him/her for ever and ever playing the same game. period. They love that game more than Love or even them selfs. They choose their life, time for you to choose yours.
Love Gypsy
Gypsy,
Blitxen and I are talking about Narcissistic Personality Disorder and traits that are associated with it, and some other.
You are talking about the narcissistic personality, not the disorder. Below is a clip from the Mayo Clinic site explaining the differences. It’s not high tech.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/narcissistic-personality-disorder/DS00652/DSECTION=2
Signs and symptoms
Narcissism itself is a personality trait, a much higher regard for and love of oneself than for others. The word “narcissism” comes from a character in Greek mythology. Narcissus, a handsome youth, doesn’t think any of his female suitors are worthy of his beauty. When the gods condemn him to look at his reflection in a pool, he stares at himself lovingly for so long that eventually he simply withers away and dies.
Most specialists think of narcissism as lying along a continuum, from people with good psychological health to those with narcissistic personality disorder.
People who have a narcissistic personality style rather than narcissistic personality disorder are generally psychologically healthy, but may at times be arrogant, proud, shrewd, confident, self-centered and determined to be at the top. They do not, however, have an unrealistic image of their skills and worth and are not dependent on praise to sustain a healthy self-esteem.
You may find these individuals unpleasant or overbearing in certain social, professional or interpersonal encounters, but they aren’t necessarily unhealthy.
Pathological narcissism
The other end of the continuum  narcissistic personality disorder  is a persistent inability to establish a realistic, stable self-image, therefore creating an overdependence on others to regulate their self-esteem. This unrealistic self-image affects how people with this disorder behave and interact with others.
Individuals with narcissistic personality disorder may come across as conceited or snobbish. They often monopolize conversation. They may belittle or look down on people they perceive as inferior. When they don’t receive the special treatment to which they feel entitled, they may become very impatient or angry.
People with narcissistic personality disorder tend to seek out individuals whom they perceive as equal to their own self-image or to whom they attribute the same special talents and qualities they see in themselves. They may insist on having “the best” of everything  car, athletic club or social circles.
Their personal relationships and interactions are driven by the need for admiration and praise. Consequently, people with narcissistic personality disorder value others primarily according to how well those individuals affirm their unrealistic self-image. This limited value of others usually means that people with the disorder aren’t interested in or aren’t capable of perceiving the feelings or needs of others. They may take advantage of other people to make themselves look as good as they imagine.
On the other hand, seeking admiration also makes people with narcissistic personality disorder vulnerable to criticism. If someone criticizes an individual’s contribution to a project at work, for example, he or she will perceive this comment as an assault on an image that needs to be protected at all costs and may respond with feelings of shame, humiliation or sadness or may express rage, disdain or defensive behaviors.
The shy narcissist
Some specialists have described individuals diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder as “shy narcissists,” “closet narcissists” or “deflated narcissists.”
These individuals, like others with narcissistic personality disorder, have a grandiose, unrealistic sense of their abilities, achievements and worth, and they often feel disdain for others whom they perceive as less exceptional. They also have vulnerable self-esteems and are very sensitive to criticism. However, these individuals don’t seek admiration or overtly express their sense of superiority.
Among all the other lovely things I hold in my bag of tricks, I’d be most happy to have Mamolie join me in being superstitious. In fact I’m thinking instead of a quilting bee, or beading workshop, or tupperware party, maybe we could all get together with a few really nice bottles of, what do I have here? wait a sec, lemme check…Meritage (theyre quite expensive and I’ve been saving them for a special occasion)…some wax, hemp yarn, straw and we could get silly and happy while we make up some voodoo dolls?
on our “it wasnt my fault” loveseat?
I was reminded tonight by a dark beautiful boy with earrings and smokin blue eyes that there is so much life after N’s…its all just waiting for us, when we’re ready to go pluck it, hanging ripe from life’s branches…
(sigh)
I want to get back to normal
tell ya what…I’m going to put up my feet and relax, Mamolie, let me know when we’ve arrived k?
Gypsy,
I am sorry, we also got a little sidetracked into OCD there which has very little to do with NPD, or Narcissism, at all.
It’s just that there are a whole series of coping skills for OCD that are about partners etc making a very clear distinction between “overlooking” a behavior and participating in or enabling it that might be useful in any situation where you cannot change, or expect to change someone else’s dysfunctional behavior, at least not right away.
GD
“The shy narcissist Some specialists have described individuals diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder as “shy narcissists,” “closet narcissists” or “deflated narcissists.” These individuals, like others with narcissistic personality disorder, have a grandiose, unrealistic sense of their abilities, achievements and worth, and they often feel disdain for others whom they perceive as less exceptional. They also have vulnerable self-esteems and are very sensitive to criticism. However, these individuals don’t seek admiration or overtly express their sense of superiority”
This is how I managed to get myself caught so badly a second time. I thought my radar was fully functioning, and it was in so many ways. But take that last sentance and see how i could have so truly believed I had met someone special. Quiet, and yes, i would say shy, polite, non confrontaional. We never fought. He tried toget out of the relationship, but as if he felt not good enough for me and never had any valid reason when we discussed it. I was happy, I could see no problems, neither could he come up with any, and he would come back, only do it all over again as soon as things were settled, and everything was going really well as far as i was aware. THAT was his way. His way of pulling the rug. But with none of the in your face N traits i just could not see the truth. But i see it now. What I thought was spiritual in him, is in fact where he believed himself to be extra special. He thinks he is an angel, here for a special mission. Better than human. He lives a quiet life, cant really handle people, but doing nothing useful. His kids dont get him, his family dont get him. he knows there is something wrong on this planet, but I really dont believe he thinks it matters. Anyway, it doesnt really matter now. I am starting to forgive my self for my stupidity. At the end of the day, it doesnt need a name to be wrong. i truly believe that on occasion his humanness forces him to enter a relationship - the need for physical and emotional contact overwhelms him, but he just cannot sustain it. On the back of my many years turning somersaults with my husband, I really did not need this particular mistake in my life!!! When he eventually left, he acted out some crazy psychotic thing and we were in in touch by phone and text, him refusing to say where he was and taliking about death (eg - wen i die i want you to take care of it my love) and killing the next person who spoke to him and stuff like please be my friend, I wish i was with you in our cave (my bedroom!) . I was frantic, phoning mental health helplines and all sorts. I managed to contact his brother who was like…dont be too upset, he’s done this type of thing before, he’s always been weird. The psychosis stuff went on for a good few days. At the end of it he was like - “what are you on about?” I am fine, and you are annoying my peace, dont contact me again. It all left me reeling, traumatised and shocked. He left town a few days after dumping me in an alcohol fuleeld haze on the day my husband told me he was taking my kids. NPD?? who cares, but definately one rotten rotten bastard to the core.
Phoenix,
There are only two things, I never tried, one, an EXORCIST and the other VOODOO DOLLS. I would love to join you on your loveseat and try a new craft. I think you are onto something, and from what I have learned here,I think we only have to make " HEADS " but since we all are so creative we can make the whole doll just for fun, just make the HEADS larger,since it will require more pins in that area. Thank you for inviting me to join, sign me up!!
Susiejo,
since you only have one friend here, her name is" B L I T Z E N"
"not" BLITXEN, PLEASE get your reindeers right, POOR BLITXEN, MAY BE OFFENDED by that.
"BLITZEN" IS HERE AT CAREPLACE
"BLITXEN " IS AT THE NORTHPOLE ,WORKING AND GETTING THE SLEIGH READY SO SANTA AND ALL THE REINDEERS WILL HAVE A SAFE, SUCCESSFUL TRIP, NEXT MONTH. EVERYTHING HAS TO BE IN TIP TOP SHAPE,CAN'T HAVE ANY BREAKDOWNS OR DELAYS AND DISAPPOINT MILLIONS OF KIDS. BLITZEN will probably show up the 24th and convince(BS) them all ,she did all the work.
Hugs mamolie
mamolie,
Have you come back to antagonize Blitzen and myself in efforts to get uproar going again on the NPD board?
No I am not,
just think it is polite to call people by their correct name when speaking to them.
Hugs mamolie
EEE GADS…MAMOLIE…REMEMBER
THE CHAMPAGNE AND THE FOOT RUB… THROW THE CHESS BOARD AND
ROCK AND ROLL…
On Nov 21, 2007, at 9:59 AM, mamolie wrote:
Screen names are not real names. Blitxen has shared her real name. Why are you not calling her by that?
So why don’t you set an example of politeness mamolie. It is Thanksgiving weekend. Don’t you think this board got wrecked enough already?