Victim Mentality

NOW BLITZEN,

How would you even know that if you were the “victim” of the perpetrator? it sounds to me that you are fighting your own demons and trying to convince us that what Sam says is totally incorrect.

You have been trying to explain the narcissist, as opposed to understanding the victim of the narcissist.

I question your motive for being here.

You are very similar to my ex-husband’s profile. I am sorry to say that, and I am not trying to be mean. You honestly sound like the narcissist. You have failed to send your story or even discuss your reasons for being here. You simply demean and devalue, and if you could—humiliate.

Can you be ever so courageous and tell us a little bit about yourself?

Gypsy,

Don’t be too impressed by Gaye’s “research”.

As her correspondence with CZBZ has demonstrated, she doesn’t know the first
thing about the subject. She copy-pastes other people’s works without an
ounce of context and understanding of the disorder. She doesn’t know what is
the mainstream of research and what is fringe lunacy. She copy-pastes with
equal “authority” rubbish (and a lot of nonsense is written about NPD) and
canonical texts. She doesn’t have the least idea what she is talking about.

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “gypsy” npd-cpt6829@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Victim Mentality

Gypsy,

Gypsy, You are most welcomed to live your life as suits you. Just please afford me the same respect. And understand that I am a bit sensitive to the stigmitizing of those with mental issues having schizophrenia in my family for generations. I’m the same way towards racism and sexism as I believe the same underlies all. This is the 21st century. Again it is one thing to talk a particular personality type you do not like. It is another to talk of NPD.

Excerpt from the US Office of Surgeon General:

http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/mentalhealth/chapter1/sec1.html#roots_stigma

The Roots of Stigma

Stigmatization of people with mental disorders has persisted throughout history. It is manifested by bias, distrust, stereotyping, fear, embarrassment, anger, and/or avoidance. Stigma leads others to avoid living, socializing or working with, renting to, or employing people with mental disorders, especially severe disorders such as schizophrenia (Penn & Martin, 1998; Corrigan & Penn, 1999). It reduces patients’ access to resources and opportunities (e.g., housing, jobs) and leads to low self-esteem, isolation, and hopelessness. It deters the public from seeking, and wanting to pay for, care. In its most overt and egregious form, stigma results in outright discrimination and abuse. More tragically, it deprives people of their dignity and interferes with their full participation in society.
Explanations for stigma stem, in part, from the misguided split between mind and body first proposed by Descartes. Another source of stigma lies in the 19th-century separation of the mental health treatment system in the United States from the mainstream of health. These historical influences exert an often immediate influence on perceptions and behaviors in the modern world.

I am impressed with your response CZBZ. It is well put.

Blitzen, everytime I ask you a question as such, or hit the nail on the head, you fail to even respond. This is SO my ex-husband. This is where narcissism is so uncanny. The behaviors are the same.

CZBZ,

“One of the distinguishing problems in the disorder is low self esteem.”
~Susiejo (Gaye Dalton’s alias, one among many)

Can you believe this nonsensical sentence and the AUTHORITY with which it is
uttered and presented to us???

She doesn’t know the FIRST thing about this disorder. Her ignorance is
staggering and more so her pretensions to know everything there is to know
about NPD.

Millon tried to distinguish COMPENSATORY from CLASSIC narcissism.
Compensatory narcissists suffer from low self-esteem while classic
narcissists suffer from EXCESSIVE self-esteem:

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq66.html

This distinction has been ABANDONED ages ago (though I still find it
useful).

Read these about some of the consequences of the narcissist’s INANELY HIGH
self-esteem:

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq45.html

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq57.html

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “CZBZ” npd-cpt6829@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Victim Mentality

Another excerpt from the US Office of Surgeon General:

http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/mentalhealth/chapter1/sec1.html#roots_stigma

Mind and Body are Inseparable

Considering health and illness as points along a continuum helps one appreciate that neither state exists in pure isolation from the other. In another but related context, everyday language tends to encourage a misperception that “mental health” or“mental illness” is unrelated to“physical health” or“physical illness.” In fact, the two are inseparable.
Seventeenth-century philosopher Rene Descartes conceptualized the distinction between the mind and the body. He viewed the “mind” as completely separable from the “body” (or“matter” in general). The mind (and spirit) was seen as the concern of organized religion, whereas the body was seen as the concern of physicians (Eisendrath & Feder, in press). This partitioning ushered in a separation between so-called“mental” and“physical” health, despite advances in the 20th century that proved the interrelationships between mental and physical health (Cohen & Herbert, 1996; Baum & Posluszny, 1999).

Although“mind” is a broad term that has had many different meanings over the centuries, today it refers to the totality of mental functions related to thinking, mood, and purposive behavior. The mind is generally seen as deriving from activities within the brain but displaying emergent properties, such as consciousness (Fischbach, 1992; Gazzaniga et al., 1998).

One reason the public continues to this day to emphasize the difference between mental and physical health is embedded in language. Common parlance continues to use the term“physical” to distinguish some forms of health and illness from“mental” health and illness. People continue to see mental and physical as separate functions when, in fact, mental functions (e.g., memory) are physical as well (American Psychiatric Association, 1994). Mental functions are carried out by the brain. Likewise, mental disorders are reflected in physical changes in the brain (Kandel, 1998). Physical changes in the brain often trigger physical changes in other parts of the body too. The racing heart, dry mouth, and sweaty palms that accompany a terrifying nightmare are orchestrated by the brain. A nightmare is a mental state associated with alterations of brain chemistry that, in turn, provoke unmistakable changes elsewhere in the body.

Instead of dividing physical from mental health, the more appropriate and neutral distinction is between “mental” and “somatic” health. Somatic is a medical term that derives from the Greek word soma for the body. Mental health refers to the successful performance of mental functions in terms of thought, mood, and behavior. Mental disorders are those health conditions in which alterations in mental functions are paramount. Somatic conditions are those in which alterations in nonmental functions predominate. While the brain carries out all mental functions, it also carries out some somatic functions, such as movement, touch, and balance. That is why not all brain diseases are mental disorders. For example, a stroke causes a lesion in the brain that may produce disturbances of movement, such as paralysis of limbs. When such symptoms predominate in a patient, the stroke is considered a somatic condition. But when a stroke mainly produces alterations of thought, mood, or behavior, it is considered a mental condition (e.g., dementia). The point is that a brain disease can be seen as a mental disorder or a somatic disorder depending on the functions it perturbs.

Discussing all angles about the subject of N and NPD is something I welcome.

Telling survivors they are wrong, stupid, illinformed or demonizing or stigmatizing, or in anyway minimizing their experiences or feelings, or devaluing what they bring to the forum is not tolerable now, just as it was not tolerable before.

The problem is the disrespect continues, and when it starts going back in the direction from which it came, because survivors are getting defensive in the face of criticism, then the forum breaks down yet again.

And I’m fairly certain thats not what Careplace is about.

Narcissists are ego-syntonic (they feel great about themselves).

http://samvak.tripod.master.com/texis/master/search/?q=ego+syntonic

You are so ignorant. You don’t know the first thinga bout this disorder. Go
study and then talk!

Sam

----- Original Message -----
From: “CZBZ” npd-cpt6829@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Victim Mentality

Mariel,

If you look back, I think you will find that I have told more about myself and my life than most people here.

I also think that I have a far better understanding of people who self report online as “victims of narcissists” than most people.

I know that most of Sam Vaknin’s writing is, to use your word “incorrect”, (but in order to be fair, I have to also state that bad as it is, it is nowhere near as dangerously misleading, in it’s own right, as it is when others have finished re-interpreting it to suit themselves). Do you seriously expect me to lie about that?

GD

YES SAM!!

Thank you!!!

keep going!

Sam,

I’m not the one here who didn’t know that there was a considerable difference between OCD and OCPD, now am I?

GD

Susiejo said:


I am a bit sensitive to the stigmitizing of those with mental issues having schizophrenia in my family for generations. I’m the same way towards racism and sexism as I believe the same underlies all.


ME TOO…

I HATE any form of stigmatisation and to be honest…isn’t stigmatisation mostly just a polite word for bigotry?

GD

Accusing survivors of abusive relationships with N’s of being bigots is unacceptable.

Gee Sam,

Did they misquote you in this interview about your own self esteem?

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/71/81306.htm

Vaknin: I was elated. I did my research (with Prof. Shoham of Tel-Aviv University) on fellow prisoners. I ended up learning about myself. Everything fell into place. Decades of arbitrariness became crystal clear. Patterns emerged. Reasons led to effects. It was an epiphany. I suddenly MET myself.

I did not like what I learned about myself, not at all. I still loathe myself and am fearful of my SELF – but I have seen the enemy and it is I – and I know how to hold my line and I have a fighting chance. I hope. I can never be sure until it is all over.

Sam,
Even before I read your book, I always sort of known, that things are very off.
I also have to give you credit, never did I find anything in your book, which was untrue.
You opened my eyes and filled in the blanks, and I thank you for it.
You did manage to lead this donkey to water and actually made it drink :slight_smile:
My XNs sure dislike you very deeply for it!!
I love you for it, my life took a 180 turn for the better.
After reading your book, I stayed with my XN for another 1 1/2 years, studying and learning. Pretty cruel, for him and myself, but I had to make sure that this lesson was learned and came to a final closure.
I do not hate Ns, I just do not allow them to feed of me, thats all. Thats why I know that there is nothing wrong with their brain, they can behave when they choose to.

Phoenix:


Accusing survivors of abusive relationships with N’s of being bigots is unacceptable


Please do not twist my words…

I said:


I HATE any form of stigmatisation and to be honest…isn’t stigmatisation mostly just a polite word for bigotry?


Now, have you seen any “survivors of abusive relationships with Ns” stigmatising anybody lately?

GD

Here are some more of your own words Sam,

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/npd.htm

"Fragile self-esteem, a need for constant attention and admiration, fishing for compliments (often with great charm), an expectation of superior entitlement, expecting others to defer to them, and a lack of sensitivity especially when others do not react in the expected manner, are also hallmarks of the disorder. "

PS Sam,

While we have your full attention…

Earlier in the week I asked you to define what YOU mean when you use the term “the Narcissist”…I think the question got a bit buried, so perhaps you’ll answer it now?

Don’t worry, it is not a trick question. “The narcissist” is technically a misnomer, I just think it is expectionally relevant, as long as you post your links and articles, to have a definition of what you mean when you use it.

GD

Well Phoenix,

The full PCL-R test is a long and complex thing…howsomever, in ANY form, it tests exclusively for Psychopathy, not NPD.

GD

"You are so ignorant. You don't know the first thinga bout this disorder. Go study and then talk!" ~Sam Vaknin

You tell 'em, Sam! I may have started out as your student, but I kept doing my homework. I am glad it shows...ha!

There's intelligence as in the Jeapardy Variety where facts and criteria are quoted ver batim...rather like that parrot Einstein who sounds really smart but still can't stop himself from pooping on the floor. Even seen that pet bird on TV? He is AMAZING! He makes sounds like a duck, a spaceship, an alien and you'd almost think he merited the name Einstein if you didn't know he was a bird.

Then of course, we have intelligence that is useful. We might define this as the capacity to integrate information into our lives. These are the folks that read criteria and apply it to something that matters---like our experience. Our lives.

So parrots that sound like Einstein don't carry much weight with me other than their amazing capacity to repeat what they hear and respond on cue. Show me someone who can apply the collected knowledge and you'll be seeing an intelligent human being.

Cut-And-Paste is a pretense, a sham, a fraud, a way to garner vicarious authority by mimicking other people's words.

CZBZ