Well-said!
Verbiage without CONTEXT, without CONTEXT, without DEEP understanding,
without ERUDITION, without LEARNING, without COMMITMENT, is nothing but
logorrhea (verbal diarrhea) and equally useless.
Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: “CZBZ” npd-cpt6829@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Victim Mentality
OOPS!
Should have been:
Verbiage without CONTEXT, without CONCEPT, etc … (in the text below).
Sorry!
Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Vaknin author of “Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited”"
palma@unet.com.mk
To: “CZBZ” npd-cpt6829@lists.careplace.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Victim Mentality
Well-said!
Verbiage without CONTEXT, without CONTEXT, without DEEP understanding,
without ERUDITION, without LEARNING, without COMMITMENT, is nothing but
logorrhea (verbal diarrhea) and equally useless.
Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: “CZBZ” npd-cpt6829@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Victim Mentality
Maybe it's time for a little entertainment? Check out this link: A Very Smart Bird
http://www.upchucky.net/flash-fun/smart-bird.html
ENJOY!!
CZBZ
Sam, the more I read of you on NPD and esteem issues, the more confused I get. Can you help me out? Do they have high esteem, low esteem, or no esteem?
http://htpprints.yorku.ca/archive/00000022/
In its absence, our sense of self-worth and self-esteem in adulthood tends to fluctuate, to alternate between over-valuation (idealization) and devaluation of both Self and others.
The narcissist has no self-esteem or self-worth of his own (no such ego functions). In the absence of observers, the narcissist shrivels to non-existence and feels dead. Hence the narcissist’s preying habits in his constant pursuit of Narcissistic Supply. Pathological narcissism is an addictive behavior.
The classic narcissist is self-confident, the compensatory narcissist covers up in his haughty behaviour for a deep-seated deficit in self-esteem, and the inverted type is a co-dependent who caters to the emotional needs of a classic narcissist.
Their self-esteem is constant and positive, not substantially affected by outside events, no matter how severe.
He does not lash out at people in order to restore his lost esteem, his prestige, his sense of power and control over his life, to recover emotionally, or to restore his well being. He rages because he cannot help it and is in a self destructive and self-loathing mode. His anger does not contain a signal, which could alter his environment in general and the behaviour of those around him, in particular. His anger is primitive, maladaptive, pent up.
Sam,
Thank you for courageously writing a book about the dark side of narcissism. Your book has given me the only truth to the tales my ex-husband spun. Everything I felt, believed, and saw with my own eyes and endured, was spun into me being “sick,” needing help, being crazy, etc. After finding this book, it confirmed everything I instinctively knew and more. I read your book and referred to it so many times, particularly when I became frustrated or lured into the macabre dance.
Blitzen, I have not been on this forum for very long, so therefore, I have not heard your story. For you to assume such a thing, in my eyes is avoiding the subject. Until I can have a better understanding of who you actually are, I have to go on my own gut, and I believe that you indeed may be suffering from narcissistic personality disorder; your demeaner, interaction, and responses tell me so. I have yet to detect any kind of empathy, sensitivity, and/or understanding to anything on this forum. And again, I question if you and SusieJo are one of the same. And when one has to think like that, it leaves one with a very bad taste in one’s mouth. And if that is the case, and I am corresponding to someone (another self) known as Susiejo, and it’s really an alias to the one and only Blitzen/Gaye, then should I also take into question dual personality disorder? And like Sam says, “What’s with the cut and paste?” We can all do that, and the information is not hard to come by. Please, spare us.
CZBZ
Cut-And-Paste is a pretense, a sham, a fraud, a way to garner vicarious authority by mimicking other people’s words.
I don’t see that, it’s just the presentation of accredited evidence, and certainly a lot less fraudulant than, for example, making things up as you go along to suit your own agenda…
GD
Cut and paste is a very good way to save time too in replaying to posts. Why rewrite what is already written, edited, and well said?
You may also note Czbz, I try to draw respectable hypothesis and theories from scientists and the medical field, not psychologists who hold little respect actually from the other because most of what they present is only conjectures - opinions with little but other conjectures to substantiate what they say.
Conjecture
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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In mathematics, a conjecture is a mathematical statement which appears likely to be true, but has not been formally proven to be true under the rules of mathematical logic. Once a conjecture is formally proven true it is elevated to the status of theorem and may be used afterwards without risk in the construction of other formal mathematical proofs. Until that time, mathematicians may use the conjecture on a provisional basis, but any resulting work is itself conjectural until the underlying conjecture is cleared up.
In scientific philosophy, Karl Popper pioneered the use of the term “conjecture” to indicate a proposition which is presumed to be real, true, or genuine, mostly based on inconclusive grounds, in contrast with a hypothesis (hence theory, axiom, principle), which is a testable statement based on accepted grounds.
LOL
Needed that. Tough day.
Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: “CZBZ” npd-cpt6829@lists.careplace.com
To: palma@unet.com.mk
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [npd] Victim Mentality
Mariel,
I think I have answered you almost every time you have asked me a question, even though I feel your questions are hostile in their intent, and before anyone can know how I will react when you “hit a nail on the head” you will actually have to “hit a nail on the head” in some way.
For the rest:
Christina set you up a board where you have the exact environment you seem to say you want ("This is a totally supportive group and nothing else will be tolerated. Plus, no links or pasted/ unoriginal material may be posted in the forums. "), enforced by management here:
http://www.careplace.com/group/1446
Yet you have chosen to make six posts, to one thread in a week.
Angiezee set up a board, where you can posts anything you like, including personal attacks on myself and Susiejo, here:
http://www.careplace.com/group/1443
So what ARE you posting here for, if not to cause disruption, and try to have anyone who does not agree with you silenced?
You say a lot about Sam Vaknin and his “work” but the 4 threads he started since monday only attracted 15 views and no responses and you wouldn’t even let him join here: http://www.careplace.com/group/1443
I have no sympathy or respect for Sam, but I can’t help wondering, if he put a recipe for Haifa Chocolate Chip cookies in the middle of page 318, how long it would be before anyone actually noticed?
GD
Sam,
If you take the time to explain what you mean when you use the term “The Narcissist” in your posts, I won’t tell the world that you plagiarized the “User Manual” gag from me.
Deal?
GD
Blitzen,
If anyone is antagonistic it is you. I am simply responding to your approach. Now why on earth would you have to take notes on where I or anyone else has visited? One thing I am sure of is that this forum has not changed.
I do want to hear your story, because I don’t know why you are on this forum, and as often as you are, like you have nothing else to do—ALL DAY. Are you retired?
Also, many people accuse you of being hostile,(not just me), many also believe that you are posing as other people as well. It leaves one not only to question, but to feel uneasy about this whole thing. When you say the things you do, and the way in which you do it, you can’t help but respond in a way as such.
All I know is that when I leave this forum and call it a day, I leave with the same feeling I have had spending wasted time talking to my ex-husband, so I know that your conversations are not healthy.
I am saying Happy Thanksgiving to all. I am taking a break. When one feels like they have to take a break from a support group, it gives cause to wonder.
Mariel,
I really don’t think so.
I can also assure you that I am most certainly not “posing as other people” here, or anywhere, though plenty of other people usually are.
If you do not like this forum, why post or read here?
Why not post on the forum Christina set up for you here (it only takes one click to see that there have only been 6 posts in the week since she set it up):
http://www.careplace.com/group/1446
Or on Angiezee’s forum here:
http://www.careplace.com/group/1443
GD
marilee,
You all made your points very clear that you did not like Blitxen or myself. I’m not going to take time to go back and copy all the names we both have been called, all the antagonistic posts made about us. Go the True Healing Site - one thread is over 500 posts about Blitxen and myself from less than your 20 membership. And that says nothing of all the antagonistic horrible things said about us on all the other threads.
This morning started with antagonistic attacks from several of you. Please, go look in the mirror at yourselves. Being a victim of an N does not make one innocent.
I try to draw respectable hypothesis and theories from scientists and the medical field, not psychologists who hold little respect actually from the other because most of what they present is only conjectures - opinions with little but other conjectures to substantiate what they say.
Ahh yes, thats THIS week. Last week you were pushing very hard the theories of Ellis, until I pointed out you cut and paste his words very well, but you dont apply the concepts.
So it seems, Sam's not the only one who sins at inconsistency?
I wonder what "respectable" things you'll be drawing from next week? b ah, why wait till then, lets just switch now?
When you post, you can expect responses…even from people who belong to and post to other forums.
if I’m not mistaken most of us belonged to this forum first. So theres no need for a my territory/your territory debate.
Christina did indeed start another forum, but she also made it known to me that warnings have been given out and if bad behaviour continues she’ll take the next step.
I trust that she will.
I also noticed in the absence of many of us who had had enough of the personal criticisms, baiting and switching, and telling survivors they were wrong when all they claimed to want was support for their own experiences…you posted back and forth to yourself and baited us with veiled criticisms.
I noticed we didnt reply to that. Whgen your posts became more well behaved, I responded, thinking "well alrighty then, lets see if she has changed her ways and can interact in a non provocative, considerate, mutually respectful way.
I think you’ll find, you became disrespectful first…and then really, you cant cry foulplay. If youre going to criticize a survivor, you can certainly count on the kind of response you get…and in fact I am certain you do count on it.
And then as we have been witness to, many times, you then switch and cry that youre the one hard done by…
…when you know, you really do know, deep down inside that youre the one who instigated and orchestrated the very hard time youre getting from everyone.
what did you say to me once? That I was too dumb to realize you were toying with me like a fish on a hook?
So, now that youve had your fun once again, why dont we all turn our attention to the topics we really would like to discuss.
And B if you dont like survivors coming in and debating with you about your pseudo scientific pseudo psychological always-cut and paste verbiage of others with little direct relation to your life or those of the survivors, then by all means practice what you preach and lets see if any survivor starts a thread that you wont infiltrate by debating their thoughts and opinions and experiences with them.
Perhaps if you can at least do that this time around, since you found it very difficult to refrain from over the last few weeks, people might not feel the freedom to do the same with you.
you reap what you sew
and you know that already 
Phoenix,
Christina has not issued me any warnings. Maybe she is doing as I suggested to her and reading the posts to see who is actually bullying who.
Christina hasn’t issued me with any warnings either.
GD
I think Sam, Blitzen and SusieJo are having a three way…HAVE
A GREAT THANKSGIVING EVERYBODY!!!
LOVE, BUP!!!
On Nov 21, 2007, at 1:56 PM, susiejo wrote:
Bup,
I think you got it. You and everyone else have a great Thanksgiving but remember, not all members are Americans.
Well, its unfortunate that even after many survivors have objected publicly and privately to your treatment to them, that you still think its OK to continue doing what you have been, and continue to claim it is we who are bullying you.
Telling someone who dragged themselves out of an emotionally abusive relationship, injured, confused and unable to find joy in life, that they are the ones in the wrong, stigmatizers or bigots, exploiting the perpetrator, or just calling them plain ole "dumb’ are the actions of a bully. That all the survivors who have told you how upseting and offensive you’ve been go unheeded and you continue to do the very things theyre telling you are hurtful, is bullying.
Someone like me who tells you to stop, who asks others not to engage in discussions with you because you continue to blame the victims and defend the perpetrators, I hate to break it to you, I’m not the bully.
But I am as always interested in taking action against people who are bullies. I am not now nor will I ever be a silent bystander.
I’m vocal one. And thats not a bully.
And you know its not.
I made the mistake of responding to one of your posts in the last few days thinking perhaps you had been warned and that was why you dialogued with yourself ina considerate way. I was mistaken. And I feel some responsibility that any others joined in with me.
I wish we would have continued to leave this forum alone until your memberships were deleted, or until the forum died and you went on to more fertile hunting grounds.
You make this place unpleasant and unhelpful…in fact you make it detrimental for anyone recovering from the pain of a relatioNship with a N.
And that really is unfortunate, because I know from experience, and I believe when other survivors say, “we really do need intelligent dicsussion, considerate communication and compassionate support”.
Attacking the intellect and character of survivors is helpful to no one, except perhaps your ego.
…very unfotunate indeed…